When their conscience binds them to do otherwise? Lots of things.
The issue is that Moscow has wrongly bound their consciences.
Whoa whoa whoa. You just equated masks with idolatry. Full stop. No qualification. No exceptions. Itās idolatry. Iām asking if it always is. Youāre begging the question.
Especially from the perspective of someone who is trying to shepherd the flock and honour the governing authorities.
And ādoesnāt like the meatā doesnāt cut it. You have to demonstrate that masks are always idolatry for your argument to work. No exceptions. No mask in stores that require them. No masks in hospitals. No masks. Ever.
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Having read Doug for years and visiting Moscow numerous time, Doug isnāt trying to make room for peopleās consciences, heās instructing them. Many times when peopleās conscienceās start to give them fits, what they need is reassurance to trust and listen to the men that have kept watch over their souls for years. Doug is doing the opposite. If someoneās conscience flares up regarding masks, a faithful shepherd wouldnāt step in and drive a wedge between that person and their elders. He would encourage them to settle down and trust the men whoāve cared for them.
I realize there are bad churches and elders who donāt do care for their people but Doug hasnāt called for people to leave their churches, resign their eldership and move across country with this frequency in my time reading him. Heās mentioned it in passing before but never this much. So I canāt believe that inter-generational faithfulness is anything more than cover fire for the real reasons heās pushing so hard and long on this stuff.
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Read the q/a on Dougās post today. Youāre reading Doug more charitably than the Warhorn guys.
I think Tim is right on this: take Doug at his word!
Doug also gives this advice solely on the basis of masks.
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Try as I might, i donāt get this argument. How has Moscow bound their consciences? They express their view on masks and it is different than yours. Does that mean when you express your view that masks are a duty that it binds my conscience because I differ on you than it?
Again, going back to when their conscience binds them to do otherwise? Lots of things? You would allow people to go against what you have argued is a clear duty to obey God if they say their conscience is against it. How far does that freedom go? I donāt see how we have freedom of conscience to disobey God and how pastors have the freedom to let their people openly disobey God. Either masks are a duty and we are all bound to obey or they are not and therefore we are free to wear them or not. Which is it?
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I donāt know you. Sorry. But I hear Admiral Akbar all over this!
Can a godly minister not seek to honour the governing authorities yet also seek to avoid being dictatorial in doing so? But urging the use of masks in submission to the governing authority, yet not making a huge issue of it for those who refuse? Isnāt that seeking to obey the governing authorities and provide room for disagreements of conscience without rending fellowship?
And I say that as someone who is very sympathetic to much of what Doug has written over the past years. But this hobby horse of masks is troubling.
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Could you link me to that Q/A. Im not finding it on that post. Having read it now twice, I think Doug is actually making the opposite point. He is telling people to calm down and consider things wisely before they make any changes. I donāt see what is wrong with that. Its good advice. But maybe this Q/A makes things look different.
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I wasnāt trying to mislead by not posting the whole quote. I think the broader context is that Doug has provided rationale for people who want to leave good churches over mask requirements. I know there are bad churches who are failing their people in many ways. Thereās a world of difference between you talking to your friend on the phone and hearing his particular concerns about his particular church and suggesting the listening world that its time to ask these questions. The former is good pastoral care, even if you suggest that its probably time to find a new church home. The latter is subterfuge.
I do know that people are working through these issues and that they need help but there are also a lot of people in otherwise good churches being led to leave because of how the church has handled masks.
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Itās the first letter (from āRossā) under āMasks at Church.ā
This is not my view, and you keep saying it is. Itās not.
Even if it were, the rest of your comment reveals a very basic misunderstanding of authority and submission. Peopleās consciences are wrongly bound on lots of things. I seek to instruct them on their freedom, call them not to call unclean what God has called clean, etc. Not everything rises to the level of discipline.
When a man says he is conscience-bound to not join a church, heās wrong, but I will not and cannot force him to join a church. All I can seek to do is instruct his conscience better. Iām not going to tell him he must violate his conscience. For him to do join the church in that way would be sin.
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Forgive me then because I read your arguments to be saying that this was the case. Perhaps if you all spent less time making a hard case for civil authority on masks, people wouldnāt think this was the case.
You mean making a case that elders who lead their church in this way arenāt in sin?
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Speaking as a member of Trinity Bloomington, the signs donāt use the language of ārequiredā but are a strongly emphasized request. I donāt remember the exact language off the top of my head but they say something like āWould you please wear a mask when you enter this building?ā.
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Itās times like this that I think I must live in a different universe than the rest of you here. Our church is probably the most conservative in doctrine and worship within our presbytery, but I expect our members would be bewildered by the idea that some Christians have equated masks with idolatry. And in a time such as this, I think it completely within the authority of elders to require masks to be worn during corporate worship, either out of respect for the civil authorities, or out of a belief that it might help prevent the spread of a dangerous disease, or both. That elders of other churches choose differently may or may not be wise, but itās not my business. Nonetheless, I canāt help but see this wrangling over masks as making mountains out of molehills and very reflective of why the church in America is so weak.
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Nevertheless I know of two Evangelical Free churches in Cincinnati alone (neither of which is known as super conservative) that have had serious conflict and members/elders resign over the issue of masks.
It is far more wide-spread than you may suspect.
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Am I alone in thinking that when real idolatry comes, the sort that requires us to give up our livelihoods or lives for, the pinch of incense to Caesar, communion in the Church of England in the 17th century, or Revelationās mark required to buy or sell in the marketplace, genuine and theologically conservative Christians (particularly of the sort that gather here) arenāt going to be arguing over whether it is or not. Itās not going to be hard to discern.
For crying out loud, how is the issue of masks not the coin Jesus held? Give to Caesar what is his and God what is his. This shouldnāt be that hard.
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Notification is doing as much as weāre permitted to do. Enforcing consequences beyond warning really isnāt our duty. Are we supposed to bar the door or start kicking people out? Thatās crazy. Havenāt you ever received a warning from a police officer? Heās doing his job, even if he decided not to write you a ticket. Enforcement is always nuanced and choosing not to enforce consequences to the fullest extent possible is appropriate in every sphere of authority.
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I actually agree with you that I donāt think they are /always/ idolatry. Itās in the context of bowing the knee to the cultural, statist zeitgeist.
And I think I agree with Joseph that it seems the messaging coming out of Moscow is not consistent on this issue. At times theyāve said they /can/ be idolatrous and at others that they /are/ idolatrous. They need to clarify, and quickly.
I guess it comes down to what one thinks if the civil government has overstepped its boundaries, and what a proper response to such an overstep entails.
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I have experienced people elevating mask-wearing to be equivalent to āloving your neighbor,ā and so seek to bind the conscience. This is not a new problem. People want to find easy things they can do so they can pat themselves on the back.
Mask-wearing is just the latest manifestation.
I always say āThen I assume you obeyed the speed limit flawlessly on your way here?ā
Wear them, but donāt expect to be treated like a moral paragon for doing so. Just like we donāt give out awards for obeying the speed limit.
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