We have never argued the courts are right and to be trusted. Submission is a different thing. Love,
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Forgive me for replying to several posts at once, butā¦ mostly briefly, so thatās good. 
Iād like to know who teaches this. I donāt believe Iāve ever heard anybody argue for anything like this.
This is wrong. And it is false equivalence to make that the same as unlimited jurisdiction or unlimited obedience. Have you never been unjust in your discipline of your children? There are countless examples where parents are possibly being unjust and are forced to make a decision. Will you leave both children unpunished when you donāt know who is originally at fault? Thatās unjust. Will you pick one and hope you are right? Youāll be wrong sometimes. Will you punish both? That will be unjust sometimes. Are your children required to submit to your discipline only when it is perfectly just? And thatās just one of countless examples I could raise.
Can you tell them to go two miles with the man who unjustly requires them to go one mile?
Of course there are limits to jurisdiction. But you havenāt even begun to prove that we are free to ignore unjust commands from a legitimate authority. Nobody here is arguing for unlimited obedience. But you are arguing for a particular limit to authority (any unjust command) that is not biblical.
Actually, this is a command of God, and it isnāt about prudence but about how we will
I agree with the first sentence, but the second sentence shows you mean something very different than I was thinking. How far down the path are you willing to go with this? Paper money is a lie. By your argument we are prohibited from spending or receiving paper money in exchange for goods. For you to be willing to take reason, logic and conviction about things you arenāt an expert in and then make up commands according to them is quite the difference from being unwilling to say that going the extra mile in submission is a requirement.
No. Masks were the way we reduced the panic and allowed most business to return to normal while tipping our hat to the fact that we wish doing so wouldnāt kill hundreds of thousands of people.
On the contrary, for many people masks have allowed them to stop seeing other people that way.
āresistance to Tyrants is obedience to Godā is not the same thing as āWhen you are faithful to God you will find yourself opposed to tyrants.ā I agree with the second, and not with the first. The first says that any and all resistance is obedience. It is not.
Because thatās the way they have applied it, even down to telling their readers to leave their churches over it. And their readers have. They can say thatās not what they mean all they want, but itās what they are saying while claiming itās not what they are saying
Agreed. Which is why weāve tried to argue that churches have freedom on this, contra what some claim.
They would argue that those good Christians are agreeing with a lie and thus breaking the ninth commandment, among other things. While saying that itās fine for them to do so. Itās incoherent.
Yes. He most certainly does.
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Henry, my comment was not obliquely directed at you but rather a large group of people, of which you apparently are a member. But I welcome your response and do not feel any frost.
Is it possible that the election was stolen for Biden? Yes, I think that is quite possible. But realistically, I do not see myself or other common men in a position to judge because the evidence presented to us from all sides is slanted and selective. Furthermore, people who are in a position to judge but donāt have anything to gain from a Biden presidency reject the idea that the election was stolen, or are unwilling to commit themselves to anything more than some empty rhetoric. Could all those people from VP Pence down be wrong, weak, or corrupt? Sure, but what can be done about it? Thereās no higher authority on earth to which we can appeal. The solution is to win elections by a larger margin than fraud can overthrow.
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I would argue that this is the implication of some arguments being made.
I think we have different definition of unjust. I am not talking about good faith efforts at being right and being mistaken. For example if a court hears evidence and convicts a man for a crime that he didnāt actually commit, in one sense this is not justice being carried out but if everything was done according to good faith principles in accordance with the law of God no one would call the court unjust. Being wrong is different than acting unjustly.
This comes in the Sermon on the mount at the same place as Turn the other cheek. We must accurately interpret that passage brother before we absolutize it beyond its meaning and turn it into an argument for the heresy of pacifism. Martin Loydd Jones is helpful as is Calvin in saying that Jesus is not laying down an absolute rule or a new law but principles by which we may live. One of the two, I canāt remember which made that point that this was about prudence when faced with a soldier who might kill them.
I could use that quote about foolish consistency from Chesteron here but actually Iāll be consistent. We ought to be opposed to what is happening to the money supply. For example, the constant printing of money is wicked and unjust. It defrauds neighbor. We ought to careful what things we participate with money that contribute to this. We ought to carefully consider whether we are being just or unjust to take PPP loans for example. I think there is work to be done here. But back to me being consistent. Ive said several times that we must consider prudence in what we do. Can we avoid the use of paper money? I donāt know. But I wouldnāt say it is the same as avoiding a vaccine for example that is made out of baby parts. Im willing to work on what to do about money but can we atleast start with something easier like not going along with the lie that masks prevent Covid.
Masks might give on one hand a false sense of security (I say false because studies have shown and most people admit they donāt keep anyone from contracting Covid, which is why people say you wear your mask to protect me and I wear mine to protect you.) but actually they continue to perpetuate a sense of panic among the populace. Donāt believe me, go somewhere and donāt wear a mask and watch how people look at you.
No it doesnāt. I donāt know that anyone who has ever said that phrase has ever meant that. Maybe some nut somewhere but as I went on to explain, the phrase has a meaning.
This is something I donāt get. If we are required by God to submit to mask orders as you seem to me to be arguing for than no church could have freedom on it. The only way we could have freedom on it is to argue that its not a duty required but rather something left to prudence. You donāt seem to be arguing that.
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Just quickly pointing out that the churches served by T. Bayly, J. T. Bayly, and Dionne have never required masks. At Trinity, from the very beginning weāve simply requested people submit to the civil authoritiesā orders, yet weāve had brothers and sisters who have declined to do so who have never been shunned or in any smallest way hassled. It also bears repeating that weāve never ever spoken in any way saying that mask orders are trivial. Nor have we ever said or in any way argued the public health effectiveness of masks. So you see, weāre tired of people putting things into our mouths weāve never said and attributing to us things weāve never done. Since itās apparent from the above that people havenāt bothered knowing our actual commitments, here is one good summary:
First, from the beginning we have said that Covid is largely an unknown and, consequently, those who claim to know this or that about it are to be met with a healthy dose of scepticism whether they are public health officials, politicians, or armchair data crunchers. Even today, nine months later, major changes in policy merely reflect the degree to which many of the most important aspects of Covid remain unknown, so scepticism and humility are still the primary postures we need.
Second, from the beginning we have said that the laws of our civil authorities issued as a response to Covid should be obeyed since God has placed those authorities over us and called us to show them honor.
Third, we have said repeatedly that laws of quarantine are no tyranny; that they have a long history in our nation, and that Christians of past generations have obeyed them because they are direct fulfillment of the authority God Himself has delegated to the civil authority to protect life.
Fourth, we have said that the nature of these laws may well be overreach in this or that state or municipality, but this overreach by itself in no way invalidates the legal basis of these laws, generally.
Fifth, we have said we have discussed limits to where and when we as elders and pastors will call for disobedience to this or that overreach if they come to us in our local governments whether state, county, or municipality, mentioning one of those we would disobey, which is the banning of singing in public worship.
Sixth, we have said that each presbytery and church has the duty to make these decisions, and those who deny the authority of elders to lead their churches in these matters are schismatics, at least; and likely rebels, as well.
Seventh, we have said that, contrary to the stated position of the men of Moscow, face masks are not the āsacramentā of the secularists; that wearing a face mask does not hide āthe image of Godā; that face masks are not āidolatrousā; and that those elders of churches who ask congregants to submit to public health laws requiring face masks are not engaging in āidolatry.ā
Eighth, we have said that we ourselves reserve judgment concerning the effectiveness of face masks, but that we are not civil magistrates, and thus must be careful not to think our personal opinions on this or that clinical or epidemiological aspect of Covid is any justification for ranting and railing against our civil authorities and the public health officials counselling them.
Ninth, we have said we condemn those Reformed men who speak disrespectfully of those God has put in positions of authority over them, whether husbands, fathers, bosses, teachers, elders, pastors, or civic leaders; and teach others to do the same.
Tenth, we have said that, regardless of whether Covid is a real public health crisis, a hoax, or some combination of both, the consequences have been catastrophic to human society and should drive all those who fear God to plead with Him for mercy, that He will use this discipline to call all men to Him in faith and repentance, and remove this plague He has sent us.
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Joseph Spurgeon: āSome even allow civil government to encompass a large portion of the Churchās jurisdiction. So rather than two distinct branches of government instituted by God, the Church basically becomes a subordinate branch of the civil government.ā
And: āI would argue that this is the implication of some arguments being made.ā
Evangel Presbytery statement: āThese authorities appointed by God have jurisdiction in three spheres, exercising familial authority, civil authority, and ecclesiastical (church) authority. Each sphere has some territory it claims sovereignty over which is uncontested by the other spheres, some it acknowledges sharing with the other spheres, and some territory it claims sovereignty over which the other spheres contest or deny.ā
Itās hard to say it better than that unless you live in the land of the categorical.
We can fall into the one-kingdom ditch on either side of the road.
I could say that the theonomists are working to give the church categorical jurisdiction over the civil government. Not much room left for debating jurisdiction and overlap and the intersection of the two kingdoms when Christās reign is solely judged by whether our current civil government proclaims Christ or not.
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I donāt have a lot of expertise in the matter either, but I can see at 100 paces that the people being accused of election fraud are acting guilty. They had the means, the motive and the opportunity. The fact of the DNC rigging the election against Bernie in 2016 is a matter of public record, and Iād argue that they rigged it against Bernie again in 2020.
In my opinion, in light of the significant irregularities in the general election, itās incumbent on the Democrats to explain why anyone should think they didnāt rig the election against the man theyāve been assuring us is Orange Hitler for 5 years.
Maybe thereās a rational explanation for the massively pro-Biden vote drops (!) in the middle of the night (!) after counting had allegedly stopped (!). If there is, I havenāt heard it. I am but a humble armchair quarterback, but I can see things with my own lying eyes.
I can also see quite plainly that the people who assured me with a straight face that Russia had rigged the 2016 election, from the FBI to the āintelligence communityā to the prestige media bore (essentially) no consequences for these lies. Itās the exact same people trying to convince me that the 2020 election was right down the middle. Again, they are acting guilty.
I donāt know the count offhand, but the number of election fraud cases that got to the point of so much as introducing evidence for the court to rule on was something approximating zero. The courts mostly ruled against President Trump and his affiliates on various procedural grounds.
I think that VP Penceās acquiescence to Bidenās de facto election doesnāt rule out questions he may have about election fraud. He may believe both that the election was outright stolen (Henry posted some comments from him on the topic) and that he has no path to prevent Bidenās inauguration.
This is very well put and a very on-point analogy.
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Trinityās practice regarding masks is exactly how weāve handled it as well and itās worked out pretty well. Most have complied with a some that havenāt and we have all found our way forward without castigating anyone that we disagree with.
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Some of you men claim weāve overstated the case against Moscow when we observe how divisive theyāve been over masks, causing schism in churches around the country. Henry said they donāt really mean it: āMoscow clarified a number of times in various places that it was not meant in the absolutist sense you have taken it, so Iāve never understood why it needs to keep being taken in that way.ā
Wrong. Either itās idolatry or itās not. The entire point of accusing pastors and elders of other churches of āidolatryā is to make as serious an accusation as possible. So now, is it idolatry or not? Thatās a simple question. Come on, out with it. Itās a sign of holiness to say āI was wrong and I take it back and apologize.ā Most of us say that sort of thing regularly, but not Moscow. Never ever Moscow.
So today CrossPolitic reiterates their position in their latest marketing email in which they broadcast across the country their first command for Christians during the first 100 days of the new President Biden administration: āGo to church in person, without masks, every Sunday.ā
In person.
Without masks.
Why?
Because they say so, thatās why.
But who are they?
Shepherds stealing sheep. Donāt submit to your elders. Submit to us. Masks are idolatry. Masks destroy the image of God. Masks are disobedience. Masks are sacraments. Elders who ask you to wear masks are idolaters.
Now then, one final time I repeat this question Iāve been asking of you men here on Sanityville: āDear brothers, really, you must answer the question whether masks are idolatrous and whether elders who request or require them are encouraging idolatry and whether the government has police authority to protect the public health and, most importantly, whether itās godly to split churches with the rhetoric above concerning masks?ā
This is dividing the church and has been doing so for many months now, as we have repeatedly warned. Now Iām gone. Love,
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As far as I know they believe it is idolatry when combined with a desire to follow the statist zeitgeist of the hour. Not in and of itself. I think that is what was said on the last crosspolitic.
As far as the encouragement to go unmasked to church ā If your local congregation, like clear note, allows people to go unmasked, this would not be a problem. As far as I can tell it only becomes a problem when the elders of a congregation do not allow such liberty in their congregation. But then we have to ask why they would not allow such liberty.
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Unless the eldersā request to honour the government is deemed to be ānot allowing such liberty.ā
Liberty of conscience is a funny thing, and it often seems to be determined by the one whose conscience is offended.
When it comes to election fraud, the best solution is to win by a fraud-proof margin. Otherwise, one must count the cost and judge whether one can prevail in the courts because it is foolish to go out with 10,000 against 20,000 and then get routed. Continuing to futilely allege a stolen election so many weeks later only assuages President Trumpās ego and empowers grifters to fleece the plebes. Riling up people to the point of the Capitol mob does nothing to help the ordinary man but instead strengthens the hand of the Establisment.
In my view the Russia business was a big mistake for the Democratic cause because it did nothing except empower their grifters and assuage Madame Clintonās ego. The ordinary Democratic constituents did not benefit, and it did not strengthen the Democratic party coming into the 2020 elections for them to have spent so much effort pushing allegations that went nowhere.
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I think thatās the crux. If a brother doesnāt like to eat the sacrificed meat, for the elders to require him to is not good, even if the request came from Caesar.
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Regarding Moscow stealing sheep, this from Dougās post entitled Tell it not in Gath:
āYou have big decisions in front of you. Should you move your family? Should you keep your job? Should you resign your eldership? Should you leave your church?ā
The first big decision that Doug suggests you should consider is moving your family. Then work, then quitting the eldership and finally leaving your church. Doug has written too much and for too long to be allowed to write this sort of thing without having to own up to his intentions. Iām sure that there are other ways to interpret him (heās not suggesting people do these things but only trying to affirm that they arenāt crazy for asking such questions) but the fact is that he has a lot of peopleās ears and this is what heās filling them with. When the going gets tough, pack up and leave.
I wonder where he thinks people should move to or who they should get counsel from as theyāre leaving their churches and resigning as elders?
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Here is where I struggle with your rhetoric against Moscow. You men have been making arguments for quite a time that the civil magistrates have the authority to require masks be worn in worship and that we must submit to the mask orders. At least that is what it looks like. But then you turn around in your own churches and donāt require them to be worn. Though having attended, I thought I saw signs requiring them to be worn. But Iāll take your word that you donāt require it. If that is the case then something isnāt computing with me. It cannot be the case that we have a duty to obey the civil magistrates on masks and yet also say our churches donāt require this duty to be performed. If they have the duty to obey on masks then we would be remiss as pastors not to require our flock to obey this duty. But if we donāt require them to be worn we either donāt really believe it is a duty required by God or we are simply allowing sinful behavior into our congregations. Which is it?
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Heās also said you should try and work with your current elders as much as possible on the issue of conscience. When he suggested you move, one of the criteria was to try to be closer to family so that you can start building inter generational faithfulness. Lots of reasons to move, especially with states like CA going nuts.
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You are all pretending as if the things they are saying donāt have consequences or meaning.
For months they have been attempting to show people that wearing a mask is following the statist zeitgeist of the day.
You all act as though they are not really saying that wearing a mask is idolatry, just that it can be idolatry. As though they are not really saying that people should leave churches over masks. As though they are not really binding peoplesā consciences.
They are. They are. They are.
Weāve had dozens of people visit our church after leaving their own with no stated concern with their own church except for masks. And when I asked one of them why he felt he couldnāt wear a mask, do you know what he said? The Bible prohibits it in Corinthians. As I said to him at the time, shame on Doug Wilson if thatās who told you that.
You can pretend all you want that his terrible Bible teaching on these things (so bad I donāt hesitate to call it eisegesis and abusing Godās word) has no consequences and thereās nothing to worry about, but such a claim is so disconnected from the reality in churches around the country that I cannot bear it any more.
Please stop saying that Moscow isnāt teaching people to do these things. They are, and the people are listening.
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The elders are not the enforcement arm of the civil govāt, thatās law enforcementās job.
Weāve told our people what our mayor has required of them. Its true that our church could face some consequences (fines or something, the mayor hasnāt defined what āpunitive measuresā we would face) if the police show up on Sunday morning and hold us responsible for the few unmasked faces in our assembly. But this is the same for any business in our area and weāve fulfilled our responsibility as elders.
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It might be helpful to put the whole quote in context which says
You have big decisions in front of you. Should you move your family? Should you keep your job? Should you resign your eldership? Should you leave your church? These are momentous issues, and absolutely every one of these dire situations can be made worse if they are augmented with panic or haste, or the demonization of anyone who differs in the slightest degree. So one of the good indicators that you are keeping your head is that you can grant, however crazy things have gotten, it is not the case that everyone is bonkers. It is not even the case that everyone who differs with your course of action is bonkers.
That is far different than you made it out to be. I have routinely had conversations with people struggling through all these questions. I just did this morning in fact. A brotherās church still hasnāt met and on top of that its going down the woke path and becoming soft on sexuality. It is a church that used to be solid and is near the seminary. Heās thinking through these questions. Many people are. We are seeing a shaking if you will of the foundations all around us. It does us know good to not acknowledge what people are struggling with. My advice to these people is actually the same as Dougās in that paragraph. I donāt try to steal sheep. I tell them to be careful. But brothers it is bad out there. And I do think one red flag for me would be a church that has gone along with every Covid restriction without a peep.
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David that is a little bit of a cop out. What other duty of God would you allow people to openly break in your worship services. What other crime would you allow them to do in the worship and say well we arenāt an enforcement arm of the civil government.
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