Private Sector Vaccine Mandates

With the other threads getting long and unwieldy, I decided to re-stir the pot. This is a screenshot of what I assume is a Facebook post. I’m not on Facebook. This was sent to me by a friend. Ignore the upper commentary, which is hard to see anyway. Focus on what Brad Littlejohn is saying.

I think it’s partly the perception that the government is using its soft power to get these companies to do what it wants. Similar to the idea that the government doesn’t have to illegally censor if it can convince enough of the private market to do it. So while technically legal, it feels to some like a run-around or an exploitation of a loophole.

It’s hard to productively discuss something that, if it exists, won’t be brought to light for decades, if ever.

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“Ever?” No. Everything will be brought into the Light. Anyhow, your response leads me to suggest maybe this is why we pastors never preach against most sins?

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I agree. It’s the level of cooperation between large multinational corporations and civil government that is concerning. It’s why I can’t be a libertarian. Why should I trade Nancy Pelosi as a tyrant for Jeff Bezos as a tyrant just because he’s not civil government.

The argument against making the gay cake in my mind is this: sodomy is wicked and therefore there is no right that sodimites have to gay cake.

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Pastor Joseph,

As a general equity man, I agree with you about the gay cake example.

Of course the government wants these companies to mandate vaccines, as schools and others do for other vaccines for many, many years. The companies also want to be free from legal liability for spreading a highly transmissible disease that disproportionately affects the elderly and the overweight. Wouldn’t you, if you were in their shoes?

I’ll grant that our society’s response has been frenzied and driven by panic, especially with regard to children. But with that said, it’s wise to think about what others think, others who are not us. This was what I was getting at with my dismissive comment about the Reformed ghetto. My perception is that we often think and write about Covid thinking of ourselves only, and not thinking about everybody else. That’s normal of course. None of us need to learn how to be selfish prigs.

How can a society given to decadence and sexual immorality possibly care for others? Think about Sodom. Forced homosexuality is the polar opposite of hospitality. Liberal commentators think they’re smart when they point out that Sodom was judged for being inhospitable, neglecting of course the narcissism at the heart of False Intimacy.

Whether we agree or not, most of our fellow citizens are scared of Covid. Several of these people go to non-Reformed churches. They’re normies. They are why Gov. Holcomb was re-elected with 57% of the vote, while the libertarian candidate you and I voted for who pledged to end Covid restrictions got maybe 10%. And that’s just Indiana. It’s also why Joe Biden received 8 million more votes than Donald Trump. Most people wanted masks, and now that vaccines are available, more people have been vaccinated than voted for both Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

People wanted the restrictions and that’s why we got them. The vaccine mandates are there because people want them. Before Covid, I was pro-vaxx but against mandating vaccines except in very, very limited emergency circumstances. That’s still what I believe. Most people disagree with me, and I have to share a country with those people, and those people vote. More of those people than I’m comfortable with really do think it’s incredibly rude and bigoted not to bake the gay cake.

I say, don’t overplay your hand.

There’s a key difference between a prior and acknowledged restriction (knowingly choosing to work in a field that will require you to get a flu jab every year or working for a school/church that is self-consciously and publicly Christian) and the restrictions being added mid-contract (legally requiring a cake company to now provide cakes for any and all or now making employment contingent upon vaccination status).

That this distinction eludes someone as bright as Littlejohn (any others like him) may be part of the reason for the outcry?

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Dear Benjamin

You may have explained the motives of businesses or the fact that the majority want these things but neither are justification for their actions. Just because someone has an understandable motive does not mean their motivation is sound and ought not be opposed or that their actions are justified. It’s true that people act from selfish motivations.

My point is simply that the vaccine mandates are coming in horizontally and vertically. It isnt only the powers that be that want vaccination, but your neighbors. How do we explain ourselves to our neighbors? Do we defer or do we say No and take a principled stand? If we take a stand, what arguments do we use? Which science? Will it stand up to critical Proverbs 18:17 examination? I doubt it, because it seems to me that our resistance to Covid even being a problem, then to lockdowns, then to masks and now to vaccines is driven by resentment to governing authorities we know hate us, and it’s time to get even.

So far, the record of Covid doves has not stood up nearly as well as Covid hawks. Given the failures of elites in the past 20 years, it seemed to me a good bet that they would be wrong again about Covid, but they weren’t. The predictions about deaths were right. Our predictions about the election were wrong. The economy did not collapse. Civil authorities werent acting vindictively, but out of desperation in the face of God’s judgement. They kept up restrictions knowing that vaccines were being developed and they would be able to shift back to normal later.

Would any of us as fathers want our records to be as cynically judged or as harshly criticized as the record of our civil authorities have been for 18 months?

Covid doves were right about schools and children. We are still right about how difficult it would be to bring the population back from the edge as a result of social media driven frenzy. We were right about many of the socially negative downstream effects of lockdowns and masks. We may be right about cycles and PCR tests, although that may be due more to incompetence than malice.

All this to say: if you start off on the wrong foot, there’s nothing wrong with starting over again. That’s what I’m doing. I started out with maybe 5% trust in the authorities, and now I trust them more, because the record is what it is.

Ironically, resisting the vaccines means that the regime of testing, quarantining and masking must continue.

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10 posts were merged into an existing topic: Vaccine Mandates

As someone who thinks Sars-Cov-2 is very likely an engineered bio-weapon, I’d simply like to say I’m amazed at the desire to engage in controversial fervor around here. Can’t we all just discuss something less emotion-laden. Like the recent election of “black Hitler,” for instance.* And now for something completely different

*Standard non thread-derailer disclaimer :stuck_out_tongue:

On a less goofy note, here’s the type of specific scenario I’d guess to be most likely to develop in the medium term regarding public/private vaccination requirements:

  • a continued increase in the emphasis on the delta variant of COVID cases and the unacceptable dangers of its prevalence

  • a continued or increased refusal by MSM, communications/tech platforms, corporations and most gov. entities to allow non-vaccine driven treatment/prevention options a place in shaping the public conversation

  • an expansion of attempts to implement wide ranging passporting systems for the entire public - accomplished primarily through state/local jurisdictions and large corporate/business groups requirement of vaccination proof for entry/interaction/participation

  • moves to consolidate and “technologize” said passporting systems due to:

  1. potential for “fraud/fakes” in paper vaccine certificates
  1. promotion of selling points of “ease/convenience” to the public as accommodation and acceptance of the longer-term nature of passporting begins to take shape
  1. an eventual declaration of the “necessity” of such technologizing as enough implementation on the more local level becomes widespread combined with the integration of demands for passporting requirements from more national-level concerns (let’s just guess that preventing the spread of disease/COVID in air travel will be the first national-level wedge to this)
  2. the pre-existence of data-vacuuming entities ready and willing to provide such services and integrate them with private/public/tech/data concerns of every sort imaginable (so “convenient”) see here:
  1. an increased utilization of the divided nature of beliefs regarding all these matters (and more) to foster societal dis-unity and break apart and disrupt the effectiveness of opposition (whether reasonable opposition or less-so)

I fully expect to see these things or variants (no pun intended) of all of them, just for starters.

I think I should say for purposes of clarity that despite the possibly bleak-sounding nature of these ideas, I really am approaching the thinking leading to these predictions in the furthest thing from a bleak, fatalistic or “nihilistic” perspective. I definitely expect to see these sorts of developments (and many others) but feel confident in the, at least, eventual strong failure of them. Despite what has been voiced by some, I really think much of what has happened so far and, imo, will likely be attempted is substantially less popular or desired than even a skeptic of COVID-dom might tend to think. The weaponry of manipulation that has been deployed on the American public is deeply rooted and highly developed.

This should produce optimism. It should also produce a recognition that essentially any form of eventual opposition to such systems that doesn’t take into account the scientifically effective “divide and conquer” tactics at work will be prone to massive failures and compromises of the wrong sort. I think being able to truly cooperatively work with our neighbors while at the same time being centrally faithful to our Lord and His gospel and commandments is key. I happen to think this might be easier than is sometimes thought. The number and cross-section of people who find what’s going on to be objectionable is almost comically broad. :crazy_face: I expect the ranks to increase.

For Christians, we have additional dangers to consider. Like the type of unfaithfulness that can result from pursuing even necessary, noble causes in a way that joins them too closely to more central duties. I think Lewis labels it “Christianity and…” through Screwtape’s instruction to Wormwood. Particularly dangerous if the church is neglecting some of its own reform at the same time. I really agree with Pastor Bayly that there may be a more likely revival of repentance beginning outside the church before it takes root widely inside the church. (I have some healthy optimism for inside the church, though, too!)

This is one reason I’ve found the critique of skepticism of some official narratives via dismissing the “reformed ghetto” as odd. I don’t know much about ghettos but ironically, I think that might be giving way too much credit for meaningfully critical discussions of COVID-related matters to the inside of the church.

The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light. - Luke 16:8

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My 2 cent bet:

Delta had already peaked and inexplicably declined in other countries well before it became panic time again here. My bet is that Delta fever fades from public discourse within 5 weeks.

Won’t happen in the USA.

Definitely not going to come from Apple or Google. Both have too many reputation problems to piss off that many Americans. And without their uniting to influence, I don’t think it will happen at all.

No argument from me here. Definitely seeing plenty of this on the conservative side. Regardless, disunity was going to continue growing in this country.

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ZeroHedge is saying it may have already peaked here. Take that for what it’s worth:

America is a huge country and just because Delta has peaked in the US doesn’t mean it’s peaked in your neighborhood.

I’d say that betting that Covid’s current wave is going to be smaller and less deadly than the prior two/three is a safe bet. Pandemics come in waves and at some point we likely turn a corner from a pandemic to endemic but I don’t know if there is a technical definition for when that happens. Even if there is, I doubt it will make anyone any saner.

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The national 7day average doesn’t show any decline. It’s an ongoing incline. For what that’s worth.

That’s deaths, which lags cases. The previous link was cases.

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True there is some lag on deaths, but the cases numbers still don’t show any decline. Not to mention, the seasonal effect…we will undoubtedly see more increases from thanksgiving to after the new year.

Just FYI - Our Delta phase was one of the first and most explosive in the country, and we peaked weeks ago. However, cases remain much higher than they were in spring and early summer. Here is the graph for all of Missouri, it hit earlier and harder in my particular part of the state:

image

Also, though cases haven’t reached last fall/winters peak, hospitalizations (nearly) have, and deaths may still be rising:

image

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All that I’m saying is there was no downward trend nationally, and there still isn’t.

The other thing to remember is that the cases numbers that are reported also have a lag time, which make the daily numbers appear more volatile. Using a 7 day average helps to see actual trends. That’s what these graphs show.

Indeed. Going back and looking at that article it was showing graphs of the derivative of the rate of change, not the number of cases. The number of new cases was not declining. Very silly to call that the peak, and even more blatantly wrong to say we were past the peak of daily infections. It was just fake news, frankly.

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Yeah, this it’s why it’s so hard for people to know what’s really going. I mean I know I’ve made some data errors before, but some of this is more propaganda than error. And frankly on both sides. I’m still having a hard time seeing that vaccines have made any improvements to our situation, but we probably won’t know for sure till the wave is done.

I’ll take my turn offering anecdote rather than data and say that a deacon and physician at my church reports that the people showing up at his hospital with COVID are almost all unvaccinated.

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