New Warhorn Media post by Tim Bayly:
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What about leading “the women’s ministry?”
This is obviously not out of line with prohibitions against women leading men. But what about the command for women to keep silent and ask their husbands at home? How does that command interact with Titus 2 “older” women?
I’m talking about worship, brother. Sorry, but no time for your question right now, and not here.
Well… I take it no simple answer then 
This sentence from your 2/24 article confused me on what you meant by worship:
“Yes, women sing in the choir and play the organ and piano and direct the choir, but women also show you to your seat and collect the offering and serve the bread and wine and read the Scripture and give the announcements and exhort the congregation concerning the importance of the upcoming congregational meeting and call the congregation to worship and lead the pastoral prayer…”
I took from that sentence that you had in view the whole life of the church as worship.
Not trying to split hairs or change the topic of conversation, just explaining where I’m coming from. There’s no need to reply to this either.
I understand, but everything I mentioned was in the context of Lord’s Day corporate worship, dear brother. Love,
Once again, you have an opinion of scripture that is damaging and oppressive to women using their gifts. Paul’s refusal allowing these women to speak was directed at the specific church at that specific time. The Bible does not address worship leading specifically because it did not exist within the early churches as it does now. It is also dangerous to women, teaching them to be completely submissive to men. A wife should submit to her husband within the context of marriage. We are all called to submit to each other. Perhaps you should write some blog posts delving deeper into the practical application of male submission. The Bible does tell men to submit to women withing the context of Ephesians 5 when it says “submit to each other.” Perhaps you can talk about your personal experiences submitting to your wife and other females in your life.
Your attitude appears demeaning toward women. Have you read alternative viewpoints regarding the single passage your using to oppress women?
Once again, your stance is dangerous for women. Women should not “submit to men” and maintain a “submissiveness” attitude towards men. Doing so can truly endanger them. I would tell women to submit to God and His Holy Spirit. I would tell young women to obey their parents.
Scripture does not bar women from leading worship. It does not bar women from leading in the church. It does emphasize the importance of male leadership but does not specifically say women cannot be worship leaders so I don’t think we should make things up and use scripture out of context.
Hi again, @Morgansa . I’ve already responded to you over here, but I’d like to add a few things.
You repeat your accusation that Tim is being demeaning and oppressive toward women. It is a false accusation, so please stop making it. His wife and daughters, for starters, would consider it utterly ridiculous.
You state that Tim’s stance is “dangerous for women.” So you think it is dangerous for women have a submissive attitude toward men? Is it dangerous for me to have a submissive attitude toward my boss? What about children toward their parents? What about a citizen toward the government?
You see, each of these relationships include authority and submission, and you just can’t get away from it. Is there danger there? Yes! We can all think of examples of subordinates taking advantage of their authorities, and vice versa. And yet submission to authority is what God has called us to do.
It appears to me that you mistrust male authority for some reason. I won’t speculate why – there could be many reasons. But my encouragement to you is this: God is good. His commandments are righteous. Whenever you’re afraid to trust His Word, ask him to help you see the goodness of it and to obey it.
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It is possible that Tim does not mean to be disrespectful and demeaning to women, but he is. The tone of his writing was devaluing the contributions of female leaders within the Bible. He did not offer any “cans” for women in his writings. Only “cants”. My main concern, was the way he applied his scriptural interpretation to the worship leader position within our churches. I do hope he rethinks his position and desires to be a man that frees up worship music from gender limitations and power Dynamics so we can all worship together freely.
I have three daughters myself so no. I do not teach them to have a submissive attitude toward men. It is dangerous and would not be profitable for them. I teach them to be leaders valuing kindness , Justice - to love and be like Jesus. I will teach them that submission is for marriage when they are older and will emphasize mutual submission.
I don’t understand your points about subordination. I don’t consider myself to be subordinate to anyone on this thread just because their a man. I consider us to have equal authority. I submit appropriately to pastoral leadership as well as female leadership when appropriate when I lead worship or serve.
You assume I “mistrust male authority”. I trust male authority when it’s trustworthy. I trust female authority when it’s trustworthy. I don’t trust people in authority simply because they are in authority. This would be unwise. I do not trust men that feel a worship leader should only be a man and are not willing to reconsider their position on it. I have many mentors and authority figures I respect, trust and look up to. I’ve also encountered my fair share of less than leadership both male and female.
God is good. Jesus did not devalue women or limit their gifts. Jesus spoke, so I will speak. How Jesus acted is how I strive to act.