What Covenant Seminary and Missouri Presbytery's Revoice and Gospel Coalition's LivingOUT have in common

New Warhorn Media post by Tim Bayly:


A good reminder. It has always been so. Machen said very similar things in his ‘Christianity and Liberalism.’

Great Summary and warning passages. Two questions: I noticed you used sodomy along with the Greek terms as applying to those who act and those who have desire but don’t act. Is this an accurate description of your view? And if so, can you give me a ready defense to this for future reference… My pastor strongly objected to my use of the word sodomy when describing folks like Greg Johnson. He said that the word only applied to those who actually practiced homosexuality. I was pretty angry but held my fire for another day. I only know of Matt 5:28 where Jesus makes desire and inner thoughts as equivalent to actions. Thus putting an end to the notion of sinful-thoughts-as-long-as-I-don’t-act as being okay in God’s eyes.

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I’m sure @tbbayly will have more to add, but I think we should be very careful to not dismiss or even diminish how Christ teaches in regards to sexual sin.

I’m probably not the best guy to ask how to talk to your pastor about this, but I would say that where Jesus says it’s adultery even if you don’t act, is clear and unambiguous rejection of Greg Johnson’s position.

If my pastor took such a position, I would ask him is he would hire a “pedophile-Christian” to lead Children’s ministry as long as we had a good faith assurance that his pedophile treasures remained in his heart. Don’t we want to allow this man to live out how God made him to the Glory of God? :roll_eyes: or what about pornography…should we overlook that sin so long as people don’t actually commit adultery.

But then again, my tactic is probably not the most gentle. Don’t take my advice. :grin:

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It is quite clear from your note that you and I would be best friends if we lived in the same area! Like you, I suffer from NMG (not the most gentle), which makes us special and gifted in the Kingdom. And we probably deserve special rights in employment and government benefits!

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Y’all should throw a conference. Invite all the big name NMG-Christians… :grin:


Yes, it’s accurate.If Greg Johnson and Sam Allberry and Stephen Moss are not “self-affirming unrepentant effeminates and sodomites,” what are they? Self-affirming repentant effeminates and sodomites? Self-loathing repentant effeminates and sodomites? The foundational definition of sodomy is a man lying with another man as with a woman, and that is the central fact that Greg Johnson, Sam Allberry, Stephen Moss, and all the Revoicers/LivingOUTers never stop shouting to the world about themselves. They themselves affirm their sodomitic desires publicly and relentlessly. They should be given the dignity of their own identity which is most certainly not in Christ. They’ve chosen it. They refuse to allow God’s grace of shame to cloak it. So give them what they want. Shove their noses in their sodomitic identity. This is, after all, how they demand to be known publicly.

Ken’s response is another fine one. Ask these self-affirming and unrepentant effeminates and sodomites which of the other sinners of 1Corinthians 6:9-10 should be the recipients of special names and treatment? Which of the other unnatural sexual perversions should have their shameful labels removed and be mainstreamed in the church.

Honestly, the reason church officers oppose anyone’s use of “sodomy” anywhere and anytime is that this word “sodomy” has, for 2,000 years, connected same-sex desire and copulation with God’s fiery judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Thus the use of this word is intentional in shaming the actions and lusts and identities surrounding what God burned up. Men who oppose the use of this word are opposing sodomy’s shame, plain and simple. A good way to tease this out is to ask them if they would object to you referring to non-celibate gays as “sodomites?” In small group? Sunday school? Online in social media? At a family reunion? In a Gospel proclamation sermon?

There’s no need for any proof beyond the simple fact that all these men never stop copping an identity as chaste sodomites. They want to sodomize other men—that’s what they want everyone to know and think about them. If Jesus’ words about the desire/concupiscence/lust being the sin itself are not sufficient, there is no convincing the man.

And no, it is most certainly not harsh to say such things. The repentant sodomite will be encouraged and strengthened in his repentance when you do so. It is only all the church officers and their sheep everywhere trying to shut down the shame of sodomy who will oppose you. Very harshly, by the way.