New Warhorn Media post by Joseph Bayly:
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This⌠letâs seeâŚshould I call it a satire?.. is not helpful nor is it correct. You have put words into mouths of groups that they would not say⌠except for the one you favored.
The great doctrine of the holy Trinity is the very foundation of the church. If you get this wrong you are, indeed, worshiping a different god. To be so flippant about the persons of the holy Trinity is to treat the holy as a common âchatting pointâ. Do you believe that our great Triune God talks about His relationship within His own beingâŚad intra⌠with such flippancy? I dare say not. Weirdly, as I read your article I could almost hear the voice of Doug Wilson talking⌠maybe youâre associated with him, Iâm actually unsure, but I do not say that as a compliment.
Welcome, Lin. Thanks for taking the time to give criticism.
I donât see where Iâve been flippant toward our holy God. The dismissiveness of many toward the eternal relations between Father and Son is one of the main problems I am concerned with.
If you think I have put words in peoplesâ mouths, I assure you that I didnât make these things up. However, I acknowledge that trying to treat each side as a unified âgroupâ was always going to lead to oversimplification. Many people in each group would feel themselves not well represented. Regardless, Iâd be happy to hear which group you are in and which statements attributed to that group you disagree with.
The âstoryâ in the play is true, though. This is the very simplified history. And at the end I add a new observation that Iâve read nobody point out before: Order (taxis) is actually at the heart of both the recent debates about the Trinity and the feminist debate that they came out of.
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Hi Joseph,
Thank you for your reply. In answer to which âgroupâ I am a part of, I am absolutely against ESS.
Theologically, our family is in the Reformed Baptist group, although not the New Calvinist group.
Our entire family has done great research on the doctrine of the holy Trinity as my husband and son attended a seminary where ESS was taught in earnest. We are aware of the subject of âtaxisâ, ad intra, ad extra, homousious, essence, wills, obedience, submission, function, eternal or not eternalâŚ.
The question is what is the truth? There is only one true doctrine of the holy Trinity. The church fathers who wrote about our God would tell what they could in factâŚ. not speculationâŚ. and then they said they put their hands over their mouths lest they blaspheme.
I do feel like your article is very flippant and âmusingâ like. You seemed to boil the subject down to the simplicity of logic rather than doctrine. To boil this doctrine down to âtaxisâ is, in my humble opinion, severely lacking a full and robust study and thought on the whole counsel of scripture. I am sorry, I am not trying to be too critical. The only ones that I know that boil the doctrine of the Trinity down to âtaxisâ are friends who are completely sold out to ESS. I have had discussions with these ones. Where that âboilingâ took them to in their doctrine and teaching is not pretty, to be honest.
And your article doesnât represent either group, to be honest. I have listened to the ESS group teach and debate their side for hours and I have read their arguments. You really donât represent them. As for the Feminist group, I have a sister who I would describe as being a feministâŚ. almost⌠and you donât represent them either.
I think there are appropriate things to be sarcastic about but this is not one. If you want to write on this great doctrine I would challenge you to take the hours to study it before you write. Maybe you have, but your article did not lead me to believe you had.
Maybe one scripture that could actually be used to show that there is something that men can learn and follow in the example of the relationships that we see in the holy Trinity which would be John 17:1-26. And of course there is Heb 5:7-10 when thinking about a son who learned obedience in time, after being a son for eternityâŚ. he then learned obedience.
In regards to submission, let me ask you this, when your wife submits to you is it because she thinks the same thing about a situation/solution as you do? If you answer yes to that I would ask you âreally?â. For us women to submit it means 2 things⌠1. we donât know about something yet 2. we think differently about something than our husbands or our flesh wants to do something different than our husbands want. If we thought the same as our husbands we would not need to submit. We would be âof the same mindâ.
One more thing about ESS is that it has âchildrenâ. We know some of the âchildrenâ doctrines and I fear to see the âgrandchildrenâ doctrines.
I would not even try to get into the discussion about this subject as there is so much out there already. But I might challenge you to write a new article and take this one down. Itâs a thoughtâŚ.
I donât know you but this might be one of those things we regret later on in life as we grow closer and closer to the Lord and see His greatness and we learn to fear Him more and more.
To be honest, I havenât been on your site for a number of years⌠I think the last time was when the Revoice thing was going. At that time I stumbled onto your site and liked some of your articles. Today, I was researching another subject and wanted to know if you all had written about it and I saw your article. I rarely if ever make comments as Iâm pretty busy but this one is a huge subjectâŚ. a sacred subject.
Sorry to interrupt your day. It wasnât really in my plans:). Thanks for replying and letting me answer. I do appreciate it.
Lin
Herman Bavinck:
The doctrine of the Trinity is of incalculable importance for the Christian religion. The entire Christian belief system, all of special revelation, stands or falls with the confession of Gods Trinity. It is the core of the Christian faith, the root of all its dogmas, the basic content of the new covenant. It was this religious Christian interest, accordingly, that sparked the development of the churchâs doctrine of the Trinity. At stake in this developmentâlet it be said emphaticallyâwas not a metaphysical theory or a philosophical speculation but the essence of the Christian religion itself. This is so strongly felt that all who value being called a Christian recognize and believe in a kind of Trinity. The profoundest question implicit in every Christian creed and system of theology is how God can be both one and yet three. Christian truth in all its parts comes into its own to a lesser or greater extent depending on how that question is answered. In the doctrine of the Trinity we feel the heartbeat of Godâs entire revelation for the redemption of humanity. Though foreshadowed in the Old Testament, it only comes to light fully in Christ. Religion can be satisfied with nothing less than God himself. Now in Christ God himself comes out to us, and in the Holy Spirit he communicates himself to us. The work of re-crearion is trinitarian through and through. From God, through God, and in God are all things. Re-creation is one divine work from beginning to end, yet it can be described in terms of three agents: it is fully accomplished by the love of the Father, the grace of the Son, and the communion of the Holy Spirit. A Christianâs faith life, accordingly, points back to three generative principles⌠We know ourselves to be children of the Father, redeemed by the Son, and in communion with both through the Holy Spirit. Every blessing, both spiritual and material, comes to us from the triune God. In that name we are baptized; that name sums up our confession; that name is the source of all the blessings that come down to us; to that name we will forever bring thanksgiving and honor; in that name we find rest for our souls and peace for our conscience. Christians have a God above them, before them, and within them. Our salvation, both in this life and in the life to come, is bound up with the doctrine of the Trinity.
~Herman Bavinck~
Reformed Dogmatics Vol. 1: Prolegomena (Grand Rapids, Michigan; Baker Academic; 2003) p. 333-334.
It seems you think Iâm claiming the debate about the Trinity doesnât matter. On the contrary, I wouldnât have written about it if I didnât think it was of the utmost importance. I love the Bavinck quote. Thank you for it.
Unfortunately, if we arenât in agreement about the description of feminism in this piece, Iâm afraid there is not much to be gained from us attempting to go into deeper waters like the doctrine of the Trinity. Feminism is and always has been an attack on the fatherhood of God. And one of their accusations against Christianity is constantly that it teaches women are inferior by making them subordinate.
God bless you, sister.
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