Suggestions for the Out of Our Minds Podcast

I would really love to see a good resource put out (podcast, blog or book) on the current controversy on ESS and EFS. It seems to me that progressive Christians are reading back into the Trinity Egalitarian notions of authority and submission. Men like Owen Strachan, John Frame and others who have been defending what I consider to be Historic Trinitarianism are being labeled as subordinationists. Has there been any thought by Sound of Sanity or Out of Our Minds to cover this current topic?

I did find these Bayly blog articles that are a good start.

I am also including the link which has the Bayly blog search with 5 pages of results.


Very funny that you bring this up. I just had a conversation about this very thing with @sbaker last week. The short answer is that we do not currently have anything planned.

It’s a great suggestion, but it would be quite a large work.



You and I have talked about this controversy irl. I know I’ve talked to Joseph Bayly about it some time ago.

In the case of some of the theologians attacking ERAS or EFS, they are doing so to smuggle feminism into the church. In the case of other men, I don’t think that’s an accurate description of their motive. Chiefly, I’m thinking of men who used to be involved with the Geneva Commons FB group. These men have proven they are not feminists or proto-feminists, but they still have problems with ERAS or EFS.

Earlier, I would have placed myself squarely in the camp of ERAS, but now I am unsure. The discussion is over my head, and I want to be deferential to authority and expertise. I respect men on both sides, and I don’t want to be dismissive.

All of that to say, a podcast or better yet, a series of articles on the topic would be of benefit to me. I would pay attention to what Warhorn men have to say.


Speaking of this controversy, Pastor Steven Wedgeworth referred his readers to this video put out by Lee Irons on ERAS. I watched it today. Not sure what to think about it, because for me, the doctrine of eternal generation perfectly meshes with the eternal submission of the Son. Eternal generation implies eternal submission. The video is a few minutes long. See what you think.


Precisely. Unless you reject the fatherhood of God in eternity as “social trinitarianism.” But that position is entirely impossible to mesh with the Bible.


Well, if you’re interested in this topic, perhaps you could help us out? Let’s use this thread to collect resources around the web about this topic. If you see something helpful about this topic - youtube video, audio recording, book on Amazon, blog post, etc - then please post it here. Perhaps we will be able to hit it some day.


Oh man. There are… hundreds of things. I’d rather not just have an open invitation for anything and everything on this, actually.

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I know i emailed Joseph a lengthy paper Lee Irons wrote a while ago. If Joseph still has that, it may be a helpful resource.

Yeah the weird thing about the video is Irons is treating eternal generation and eternal submission as if they must he opposed to each other. He implies, or outright says, that Wayne Grudem disagrees with eternal generation.

Maybe Grudem does disagree with eternal generation. I don’t know if he does. I know some other modern theologians have questioned it. I myself agree with eternal generation. It seems straightforward from the text.

If you are committed to eternal generation, how in the world do you dismiss those who say that the Son submits to the Father for all eternity are heretical or flirting with it? Likewise, if you believe in ERAS, why would you cut away an important support for it?


The terms and their definitions are a point of frustration to me. I had heard of EFS and ESS and now I am seeing you post ERAS and I am not even sure what that means. This is the kind of stuff I am talking about.

I also think that really good men could get tripped up by this but I think its a ploy on the part of the Carl Truman’s and Aimee Byrds of the world.


And don’t forget about Tim “Cosmic Trinity Dance” Keller…


Lol. I say ERAS because that’s how Owen Strachan described his position in a recent essay. (Eternal Roles of Authority and Submission)

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Well, what about the good things? :smirk:


Great, you’re convincing me of ERAS. And social trinitarianism has always seemed to make some sense to me.

It’s a bit more complicated than expressed here, mainly because God is three and one and the consequences of this truth. Lots of good everywhere about it.