Race, Immigration, and the Church

Here is something I write on nominalism:

One of the loudest objections to Christian nationalism is that it produces nominalism. Critics argue that if a nation outwardly acknowledges Christ—if its leaders publicly confess Him, enforce just laws, and promote Christianity—this will flood society and the church with hypocrites. And in their minds, hypocrites are worse than pagans.

But let’s examine this.

First, no Christian nationalist is saying civil government can regenerate hearts. Only the Holy Spirit does that. Civil magistrates aren’t tasked with converting souls; they’re tasked with upholding justice, punishing evil, and ruling in submission to Christ. That duty doesn’t disappear just because some people might fake it.

Second, Scripture acknowledges the reality of feigned obedience. Psalm 66 praises God because even His enemies bow before Him. Nominalism, in that sense, is not a refutation of truth—it’s a twisted confirmation of it. When the wicked pretend to be righteous, it reveals that righteousness still carries weight. No one pretends to worship a powerless god.

That said, to be clear: hypocrisy is a sin. It deserves judgment. The church must reject it. But the existence of hypocrisy in the public square can still be a providential benefit to the elect.

Here’s what I mean: in a society where Christ is honored—where laws reflect God’s standards, where churches can operate freely, where the gospel can be preached without fear—the elect thrive. Even if some pretend, the truth is still declared. Even if many are false, the true sheep still hear the Shepherd’s voice.

Look at history. Constantine’s conversion brought peace to the church. Did it introduce nominalism? Yes. But it also ended mass persecution. It opened the door for public preaching, theological councils, and missions. The gospel spread because of it, not in spite of it.

The same is true of Christendom more broadly. Even Roman Catholic nations preserved the name of Christ. And from those imperfect structures, the Reformation was born. The gospel advanced under monarchs who barely grasped it. God used them anyway.

Even in modern times, the Bible Belt—flawed as it was—produced more actual Christians than any other region of the country. Russell Moore despised it. He cheers for it to fade. But that region gave us churches on every corner, Bibles in every home, and Sunday schools that taught millions of children the Word of God. It wasn’t perfect. But it was better than drag queen libraries and rainbow month at the DMV.

Nominalism is not ideal. But what’s the alternative? A secular state that makes Christ irrelevant? A society where Christian speech is hate speech? You’re not eliminating hypocrisy. You’re replacing it with outright rebellion.

Now, let’s make a distinction. The Church must exercise discipline. She should strive for purity. We shouldn’t purposely seek nominalism but we can’t let the fear of it drive us away from obedience in the realm either. But nominalism in society—where the magistrate enforces Christian norms even if not everyone believes—is tolerable and even beneficial. It creates the space for the church to preach, for the elect to hear, for children to grow up with truth in their ears rather than lies.

Some pursue a kind of hyper-purity in reaction to this. Baptists often long for persecution because they think it purifies the church. Some Presbyterians do it too. Always reforming, always fracturing, always trying to perfect the remnant—until there’s nothing left but a blog and a bitter man. The Puritans themselves fell into this trap. They constantly picked at things. And what happened? Their descendants abandoned the faith, and their towns became dens of apostasy.

The lesson is this: purity and presence are not enemies. We want both. We want a faithful church and a faithful nation. We want truth preached in the pulpit and honored in the courts. Yes, some will feign. But many will believe.

Besides we are to be obedient regardless of the results.

Nominalism is deadly.

It was the religion of the Pharisees, who received the excoriation of Jesus Christ: “twice the sons of hell as yourselves.” It was the nail the prophets struck with their hammer with the most vigor: “This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”

You made an argument for feigned obedience, which has the appearance of large-heartedness. But it’s not. It appears to me to be the very opposite, as it rests content to leave a man in his sin and a nation in their hypocrisy so that we can have peace in our day.

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To say that a secular state can make Christ irrelevant seems to suggest that Christ only has relevance if a state holds him as being relevant.
This seems to be against the teaching of scripture.
Christ said that his kingdom is not of this world, which I take to mean, in part, that his kingdom is not contingent upon the kingdoms of worldlings.
Christ’s kingdom, the church, faithfully proclaiming the gospel, will have the effect of bringing more of the worldly nations under his reign, as every tongue and tribe comes to the light of the world, but Christ doesn’t need any nation to be “christianized” for him to accomplish this, or for him to have “relevance” among some pagan nation.

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Joseph, I’ve never said or written that, making it another straw man. Love,

Andrew unless we are universalists and we are not we have to recognize that there will be nominalism until the time of Christ’s return. There will be hypocrites until then. My argument is not that we should be hypocrites but rather we should recognize that living in a nation that is nominally Christian is better for real believers than outright assault and hatred. It is better for my family and the Christians around me that the state and culture at least be outwardly Christian than it is for them to be hostile and seeking to be all out in their perversity.

We will never have the purity you desire this side of heaven. And so our options are throw our hands up and say well there is nothing we can do. Or we can recognize that God instituted civil government and even social and cultural pressures for the good of his people.

You all act as if we are in such a greater state now that our civil government gives no place of honor to the Church or to Christ. That pluralism is much more to be desired than a nation where Christ is honored even if by some it is only nominal.

But I see your view and think it will result in nothing but purity spirals. Or if not that, it turns Christianity into a cultural suicide pact. It only has hope for some distant future after we are dead but nothing good for this life. And no good therefor can be done temporally because it might lead to nominalism and take us away from sitting around focused on heaven.

I don’t mean to say that Christ can ever be made irrelevant in an ultimate sense. I was referring to being irrelevant to the function of civil life. Yes Christ’s kingdom does not get its power from this world or the kingdoms of this world. But I am pushing back against this idea that the New Testament brought with it this radically different way that God functions.

You said this:
Christ’s kingdom, the church, faithfully proclaiming the gospel, will have the effect of bringing more of the worldly nations under his reign, as every tongue and tribe comes to the light of the world, but Christ doesn’t need any nation to be “christianized” for him to accomplish this,

Its like saying that Christ will Christianize the nations but he doesn’t need to actuall Christianize them to Christianize them.

Pastor Tim,

I have personally heard you say that about Doug Wilson.

Maybe we are using nations in a different sense. I’m using nation in the narrowest sense that, for instance, there are Chinese Christians, in China, who are members of the Holy Nation, royal priesthood. There is a literal Holy Nation, in China, which is Chinese.
The China with borders is not a “Christian nation”, but certainly there are Chinese Christians who are called to be a light there, drawing more into the church. In my view, that is the Christianization of China.
I said in an earlier comment that I think a Christian magistrate would be preferable to a pagan, I stand by that, yet also don’t think it’s a requirement.
How we get from the pagan magistrate to the Christian magistrate I think may be a part of the differences found in this whole discussion.

I believe it happens by the church preaching the gospel to citizens and magistrates alike, and then staying in their lane when it comes to the ordering and happenings of the church (in terms of the preached word, sacraments, and church discipline are concerned).
I also know there is some overlap between what happens between the four walls of the church and the magistrate, which is why I became comfortable with them mandating masks.

Dear Joseph, you write:

“Only ever point inward,” “without any vision for reformation of the nations, of laws, of peoples,” “never engaging the enemy or advancing the front,” and so on.

The men you are having this discussion with are your fellow presbyters, sir. I find your judgment of us remarkable.

Then, claiming you’re quoting me, you write:

What I actually wrote:

One would hope you recognize the difference between what was written and what you reported.

You write:

Can’t recall being upset by what you say about the Reformers. But beyond that, I don’t recall making an argument that the Reformers would oppose today’s political philosophy of Christian Nationalism. If you can find me doing so, produce the text.

Now then, please stop misrepresenting me. I’m tired of it.

Love,

PS: Then this: “Pastor Tim, I have personally heard you say that about Doug Wilson.”

So as I thought, no proof here, either. Instead, you report that I said to you, privately, “you do this with Doug Wilson too, claiming that he never does church discipline.”

No, Joseph, you haven’t heard me say this. Doug and I have discussed several church discipline matters in his congregation and he has helped us with one of ours. Please withdraw your statement.

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Dear Aaron,

Thank you for continuing this discussion. I want to clarify my position on the state’s role in reformation so I don’t inadvertently straw-man myself.

I am not Erastian. I do not believe the state holds the keys of the kingdom. I fully affirm the Westminster Confession’s teaching that the keys—the preaching of the Word, administration of the sacraments, and exercise of church discipline—belong exclusively to the church.

That said, I do believe the civil magistrate has a God-given duty to protect the church and ensure that it can exercise those keys without hindrance. The magistrate should also, for the good of the people entrusted to his care, restrain the public promotion of idolatry and false teaching. This is why I’ve always found the original Westminster Confession more faithful to Scripture when it states:

“The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the Word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven; yet he hath authority, and it is his duty to take order that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire; that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed; all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed; and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed. For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God.”

When the state fulfills its God-ordained duty to punish evil and suppress public wickedness, it better enables the church to fulfill her mission. A society that restrains evil provides fertile ground for the church to carry out her work.

I also believe a nation can be “Christian” in the same way we call a family a Christian family or a school a Christian school. That doesn’t mean the nation becomes the church, the holy nation Peter speaks of. Just as a Christian family isn’t the church, yet rightly bears the name when it identifies with Christ and orders its life around obedience to Him, so too can a nation. I believe a nation can, and should, be Christian in that sense.

As you said, the main difference between us may lie in how we get there. I agree that reformation comes primarily through the faithful proclamation of the gospel, the church being the church, Christians living faithful lives in every sphere. But I also believe God works through top-down reform. The Bible gives us examples, such as Nineveh, where the king called the entire land to repentance. In church history, we see this in the conversion of the Vikings, and earlier still in the first nation to declare itself Christian: Armenia in AD 301 under King Tiridates III.

There were no recorded complaints from Christians when Armenia declared itself Christian, nor when Rome later followed. In fact, the church fathers viewed these events as fulfillments of prophecy and a vindication of the church’s mission.

I would argue that the apostles did not possess a take-it-or-leave-it attitude toward the submission of kings and nations to Christ. The book of Acts points the opposite direction. Paul was adamant about taking the gospel to Rome, to reach the household of Caesar. Why? Because the conversion of leaders and rulers was strategic to the advancement of Christ’s kingdom.

My comments about nominalism are not an argument to pursue hypocrisy or mere formalism, but a caution against letting the fear of nominalism paralyze us from pursuing public good. There is nothing sinful in wanting our nation to repent and believe. Nor is it wrong to call civil leaders to acknowledge Christ or to govern according to His standards for the good of their people. That is part of their duty. The prophets rebuked Israel’s rulers not only for idolatry, but for perverting justice and harming the people under their charge. We are right to warn of final judgment, but we must also not neglect the pursuit of temporal good in our nation.

Sincerely,
Joseph

Dear Pastor Tim,

Thank you for your reply. I’m happy to clarify where needed.

First, regarding Doug Wilson: I do recall you saying that Doug never disciplines his followers. I’m not claiming to have a recording, but that was my clear recollection of our conversation. If I misunderstood or misheard you, then I’m glad to be corrected. But I’m not fabricating that memory. You may say well that’s different than saying, “he doesn’t do church discipline.” Ok fair enough but I still think its a straw man.

That said, even if that was a mishearing on my part, I would still argue that your public critiques of Wilson—and of those in Christian Nationalist circles—often come across in similarly sweeping terms. I think that’s why I remembered your comment that way. And respectfully, this brings me to the broader concern: when your critiques are so hyperbolic and categorical, it’s difficult not to respond in kind. You say I’m misrepresenting you, but you’ve said things like Christian Nationalists want change but not by preaching, church discipline, and repentance to change their flocks and themselves. Whether that’s formalized with the word never or simply implied, the effect is the same.

So if you’re going to traffic in hyperbole, you shouldn’t be so offended when others mirror it back. I’m willing to temper my language, but the same ought to apply to the way you frame these matters. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

As to the broader point: I do believe your critiques disproportionately focus inward. You may say you affirm the magistrate’s duty, but that’s not where your emphasis lands. The functional takeaway of your critiques is that any desire for reformation of the nation or civil order is suspect, worldly, or doomed to failure. If that’s not your intent, then I’m glad to hear it, but that is certainly how it lands.

Lastly, on the Reformers, I never claimed you outright said they’d oppose Christian Nationalism. My point is that your position on the magistrate bears little resemblance to theirs. If you think they were wrong, that’s fine—say so. But there is a gap, and I’ll keep pressing on that.

I hope that helps clarify my position. I’m not interested in misrepresentation. I love and respect my brothers here. We can fight a little like brothers at times. Its ok.

Love,
Joseph

What??? You must be reading an alternative-reality Sanityville. This is just bonkers.

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Joseph, everything you say just gets worse. It’s all self-justification by repeated statements of “you drove me to it.” I’m done. And I quit without you having made a single admission you were wrong in what you reported others as having said. You just add to your smears, brother. Bad form. Love,

Andrew,

I appreciate the jab disguised as counsel. But as you know, I am already under a heavy calling—as a pastor tasked with shepherding the Lord’s church, including in how we think about the civil realm under Christ’s reign. I don’t need to hold office to speak to what the Word of God and our fathers have plainly taught about the magistrate’s duty.

That said, I’m always glad when godly men do enter office with a commitment to govern by God’s law—not because it validates my views, but because it reflects obedience to Christ, the King of kings.

That said, I’m not content to merely theorize. In fact, later today I’ll be interviewing Dusty Deevers on my podcast—a civil magistrate who is actively working to apply God’s law in his governance. Men like him are already sharing the weight of the sword, and I’m glad to support and learn from them.

Love,
Joseph

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Dear Pastor Tim,

I love you. And for the sake of clarity and respect, I will take you at your word and make sure to retract that I heard you say “Doug Wilson doesn’t do Church Discipline.” I have heard you say something regarding Doug Wilson and no discipline but because I don’t have the exact wording, I should have been more careful when pressing. If my argument is that we ought to be careful with hyperbole and strawman, then I also should be more careful.

love,
Joseph

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Thanks, dear brother. With love

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