I mean that little significance was made of it.
Nathan, you expand on this a bit in your blog post, but this country owes a massive apology to Senator Joe McCarthy. McCarthy May have been wrong in some of the details, but his broad thesis was that there were large networks of Soviet agents and fellow-travelers in Hollywood and the US Government. And he was 100% right about this. American media and parts of the government carried water for paid Soviet agents like the Rosenbergs and Alger Hiss for decades. And it remains almost a retro genre for our nationâs putative leading newspaper, the New York Times.
Yet somehow in 2019, âMcCarthyâ is a dirty word but an avowed Socialist who honeymooned in the USSR is on TV right now asking to be President.
This is only sort of a tangential point: Nathan, your observation that Josh Harris showed up as the sexual revolution was bringing the wreckage of a culture down around our ears. Well, that sexual revolution came from someplace, and the USSR has something to do with it. And the âdeconstructionâ that Josh Harris celebrates now came from someplace, and the USSR has something to do with it. And critical race theory (which weâre talking about on the Founders thread) came from someplace, and the USSR hadnât something to do with that too.
The fruits of the sexual revolution havenât gotten any sweeter in the 20+ years since Harrisâs book. We as a church had best figure out how to make our way toward the ability to form functional families again.
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But if CJ was bad, then Joshâs work afterwards would have to be considered good, since he was essentially apologizing to everybody for all the harm CJ did, if I recall correctly. And he took the church in a different direction, rather than sticking with CJ. I donât think the proper course of action upon the fall of a pastor is to shut the church down, but it seems that just by taking the position as pastor is deemed by you as proof of some sort of corruption on Harrisâ part.
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At minimum, I am convinced that CJ is a godly man. And godly men can get witch hunted. I donât know CJ personally, but I worshiped at a Sovereign Grace Church for nearly seven years, and if the humility I witnessed in my own congregation has any source in CJâs example (he is held in high regard in SGC circles), heâs a godly influence. CJ may have been guilty of mishandling but I doubt it. At least, SGC denies so and I feel bound to accept their version of the story before accepting google evidence.
https://sovereigngrace.com/faq/
This is well worth reading on the topic:
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Not really. Apology tours and distancing are just as easily self-preservation.
Then he moved to Canada and went to seminary. Left his wife then says heâs not a Christian while positing a curated image of himself for a new audience.
His professional jump to marketing looks less like a jump than more of the same.
Douglas Singer, I find it remarkable that you read what I posted and chose to respond to it by addressing something else such as CJâs âhumilityâ. Please address the fact that they put an unproven man such as Josh Harris in a leadership role at a very young age. This is clearly in contravention to the scriptures I cited from 1Tim 3:6. Please address the fact that they did cover-up child molestation and recommended the victims not to go to the police about it. This much is a fact and even SGM has come clean about it after much kicking and screaming. For all I know CJ might be a great guy and fruitful minister but that does not undo these things. And remember, the context of this conversation is not SGM but it is about Josh Harris and his coming out as an unbeliever. No matter what else may be said, Josh Harris was the product of the vortex of the innermost circles at SGM and of their failure to employ scriptural procedures and safeguards.
He was about 22 when he became a pastoral intern, and 29 when he became senior pastor. He had already been a Christian for years by the time he was ordained (whenever that was), and showed some real discernment and concern for holiness. That passage you quoted is about new believers not youth. In fact, many senior pastors start younger than that. When the apostle Paul addresses age it is to tell Timothy not to let anyone look down on his youth.
IIRC he arrived at the church after all the abuse stuff had happened and I donât ever remember hearing that he was implicated in its coverup.
He is certainly a product of CJ and SGM along with many other faithful brothers and sisters. Remember also Judas was a disciple of Jesus and Paul told the Ephesians elders that some of them would apostatize.
I donât believe you are thinking about this stuff clearly.
Also, I do hope everybody will read the article I linked above.
In this case I think the best thing we can do is all take heed to ourselves lest we fall.
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I agree fully about the âtake heed lest we fallâ. However I think those age numbers you cited, while historically accurate, are too young in practice. Consider:
The number 30 is used as a sign of physical and mental maturity. It is an age when you are ripe for leadership. Nearly every time its number is mentioned, it is in reference with some significant event or responsibility. Itâs an age when you are no longer a boy, or young man. Youâre a man (or woman). Here are some examples:
*Joseph was 30 years old when he became 2nd in command to Pharaoh, after being in prison as a slave in Egypt : âAnd Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went throughout all the land of Egypt.â (Genesis 41:46)
*The priests officially entered service at age 30: âFrom thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation.â (Numbers 4:3)
*David became King when he was 30 years old; he was a mere Shepard before his anointing : âDavid was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years.â (2 Samuel 5:4)
*Ezekiel was called by God as a prophet at age 30 : âNow it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.â (Ezekiel 1:1)
*John the Baptist was age 30 when he came out from the wilderness to pave the way for the Messiah (Jesus). We know John was roughly 30 because the Bible says he was born 6 months before Jesus, and Jesus started his ministry at age 30. And John âwas filled with the Spirit from his motherâs wombâ. (Luke 1:15)
*Jesus officially started his ministry at age 30. Before this time, he worked as a carpenter and âgrew in stature, wisdom, and favor with God and man.â âNow Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph (Luke 3:23)â
Yes, I know David Brainerd died before he was 30 having accomplished much in the ministry, Jonathan Edwards entered Yale before age 13, and started his apprentice ministry at age 19. But are these things to be taken as normative? Or should we consider those scriptures more binding than current practice?
OK, the clarification is appreciated. TNX
Regardless of Biblical numerics (which I do not take as normative, but merely suggestive), CJ was Joshâs promoter. He got him gigs. He put him in the limelight. And despite my liking for CJ personally, since it happened many years ago, Iâve always wondered whether Josh wasnât way too young and inexperienced for CJ to push him into succeeding him as Sr. Pastor. After all, consider what CJ knew way back then about the sexual abuse and ask yourself if a 29 year old man is the one you want to follow you in handling those messes? So itâs not simply a question of chronological age, but experience and wisdom and discernment. And suffering.
Joseph had suffered.
Whatâs long been obvious is that Josh hit the crises in Sovereign Grace and Covenant Life with the affect of a deer caught in headlights. He had not learned the lessons that suffering alone teaches us.
Then, not too much later, he resigned his call there at Covenant Life. If I fault Josh and think thereâs one thing people arenât taking into consideration, itâs that resignation of his call. When God places us in a position to guard His sheep (and boy did the sheep of SG and Covenant Life need protection then), it is no small sin for us to flee our post. This is the observation Calvin makes about the conflict between the Apostle Paul and Barnabas over John Markâs abandonment. The call to pastoral ministry is a very serious thing and men who resign it very often do so sinfully, and that sin is not slight. Not the full resignation of demitting the ministry nor the partial resignation of the particular call to a particular church.
I was done with Josh when he left Covenant Life. It was no time to leave, but he did, and that told me what I needed to know. The rest of it has been largely unsurprising.
Love,
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Nathan was cool before it was cool to be cool.
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Last night as discussing the Joshua Harris situation with some brothers, it was noted how he was cozying up to the LGBTâŚit got us wondering if the next big marketing announcement will be his engagement to his long time boyfriend. Iâm not accusing, but Iâm just sayingâŚconsider the possibility.
kinda feels like heâs getting a pass. This isnât how scripture calls us to interact with false teachers and apostates is it?
1 Timothy 4:1-5
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, âA dog returns to its own vomit,â and, âA sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.â
This is not me, but God speaking of those who do as Josh Harris has done. Why canât we be content with that as a caution to all those who would be tempted to apostatize themselves.
What say you?
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Warning against making generalizations is a good thing. Hoping and praying that he will return to the faith is a good thing. But we must also acknowledge thatâŚ
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
â 1 John 2:19
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Pr. Tim Baylyâs article is balanced and gracious and strikes the exactly the tone of what I witnessed in SGC leadership.
Is a third party investigation necessary? Iâll reserve judgment on that. Certainly, damning things come to light from Denhollanderâs article re: the way the investigation was conducted. But I think that SGC may have legal principle in their favor, simply from the fact that an investigation has already occurred. Therefore, are they not right to resist another investigation? Genuinely curious. Iâm no lawyer.
One thing I think Christians should, however, be adamant about is fighting the accusation that CJ âcovered it up.â He simply claims to not know what happened. Call it a lame excuse, call it shirking pastoral responsibility to know whatâs going on in his flock, but as lame as the excuse may be, if it is a true excuse, then saying âhe covered it upâ is simply false. We must begin our inquiry at the point of his defense. (Perhaps thatâs all the third-party-investigation supporters are trying to clear up. But I still smell a witch hunt.)
Denhollanderâs article only proves that on one occasion, CJ cautioned silence about one of the breaking scandals, but any pastor might do that, and wisely, in the fresh first minutes of bad news. Every other point of the article reveals that CJ was simply in the dark (or so claimed).
Now to tie this in with Josh Harris, whether CJ is guilty of ignorance or covering it up, itâs a failure to disciple Josh well. But the former is a far less serious failure. I find it hard to believe that the handling of the cases influenced Harris to become apostate until he had first made up his mind which side to take. In the few apostasies Iâve witnessed, the mind is made up first and then filters the facts accordingly.
Mr. Dugas, the point of my earlier comment was just that Iâm hesitant to give google evidence the weight I give the statement of the actual denomination. Iâm sure that you read from wise sources and that my hesitancy doesnât apply to what youâve read.
Regarding his youth, Pr. Harris, in my opinion, showed maturity when he acknowledged (in a public conference that I either attended or heard on recording around the year 2000 EDIT: I believe Iâm wrong about this date â I think he made this comment in a much later sermon
) that he was a Timothy and needed a Paul, and sought out CJâs leadership for that very purpose. I have no problem with him using his talents at such a young age, because he was essentially acting as a âlife coach / evangelistâ (at least during the New Attitude years) and only became a pastor later, after being influenced by CJ. And interestingly enough, his rationale for transitioning to pastor was that he wanted to serve Godâs people rather than be a famous circuit speaker.
By the way, in 1993, my home church had a pedophile scandal in which the accused was condemned on only the evidence of the accuser. Was he truly guilty? I donât know, but regardless, it was a travesty of justice. These things do happen when it comes to sexual abuse cases. Emotions tend to trump good judgment.
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Dear Mr. Dugas,
Thanks for clarifying.
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@Nathan, above:
Thatâs not to say that formulas are never helpful. As it happens, Josh Harrisâs formula for courtship helped lots of people avoid the dangers of traditional dating. But then we had to scramble to come up with a formula to avoid what is dangerous about Josh Harris-style courtship. 
Formulas have their place, when not taken overly seriously, or imposed on one Christianâs conscience by another. But apart from true faith, and the difficult work of sanctificationâtaking up our individual crossesâthey are worse than useless. They are the man-made rules of the Pharisees.
In summation, Harris happened at a time when it was easy for lots of people to turn to a man such as Harris. We should have sympathy for them. I daresay we should have a little sympathy for him. He was a legalist who discovered how empty his doctrine of works truly was. Thatâs a sad story.
And if you want to predict who the modern Harris is, the guru who Hindsight Snobs in twenty years will be mocking you and me for believing in ⌠you have to think about where we most feel the tension. And who offers to alleviate it with a formula that makes it seem simple to avoid the tension.
In agreeing with these sentiments, something else comes to mind. It has been uncomfortable in the last few years to read of what has happened to homosexually-inclined people when someone has tried to âpray the gay awayâ (or attempted, if you were a certain sort of Pentecostal, to âcast out the spirit of gaynessâ - donât laugh, they took it that seriously). There are too many stories out there of this sort of thing not working. Is it because, somewhere along the way, someone was relying on a âformulaâ instead of the sanctifiying work of the Spirit?
Obviously I donât know, so would welcome comment.
McCarthy was absolutely right. That knowledge has been publicly available for 20 years. But, the version everyone âknowsâ, that everyone is taught in school, is The Crucibleâa play written by a communist.
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More from Joshua Harris. Helpful in understanding the insidious nature of effeminacy, not so helpful for those not repenting of their effeminacy.
âItâs like if the answer to the question of my sexuality puts me inside or outside of your circle, accepted or unaccepted, I donât want to be friends, you know? Fâ you and fâ your circle,â he said. âThatâs how I feel. And so thatâs why I donât feel any need to answer that question.â
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