New Warhorn Media post by Tim Bayly:
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Pastor Bayly, I have a related question to this issue. My 95 year old grandmother attends a church that has a female head pastor. Her funeral (when it comes) will most likely be lead by this woman. Should I have any reservations in attending? Thanks.
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It’s so refreshing when a man stands up and declares the word of God without hesitation or embarrassment.
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Dear John,
I think it would be helpful if you took the first swing at this. How do you read the Scriptures on this?
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Daniel,
I am in total agreement that a woman leading any sort of church service, be it on Sunday morning or a funeral or a wedding, is an anathema. Scripture is clear! Regarding attending a funeral led by a woman, I am conflicted. Could my attendance be seen or construed as an endorsement of the situation? Possibly so, but I don’t expect the issue at hand or even my presence will be much on the minds of those around me, and unlike, say attending a sodomite wedding, the focus of the service (celebrating my grandmother’s joining Christ in heaven) is not a bad thing. So the question is therefore one of personal conviction – do I view my attendance as an active violation of scripture? I would say no, as I am not the one committing the sinful act; however, the question then becomes whether my attendance is a passive violation of scripture. Sitting there in the pew, even though I am not the individual committing the sinful action, is still in a way participating in an act I know displeases God.
Not attending the funeral over the issue would probably create some strife within the family. While unfortunate, I can’t allow the feelings or desires of my family to dictate my actions or my conscience. I could come up with some other excuse for not attending – but it is hard for me to think of one that doesn’t involve lying. I suppose I could be in the building, but sit outside the sanctuary while the service took place. Or perhaps I am making a mountain out of a mole hill!
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and unlike, say attending a sodomite wedding, the focus of the service (celebrating my grandmother’s joining Christ in heaven) is not a bad thing
I think your reasoning is good. I’d go to the funeral if it were me, because I wouldn’t want to miss out on the chance to grieve for my loved one, honor his memory, and comfort others.
Love,
Dear John, this is a tough question and will only become more frequent. Summed up, it is whether or not God’s order of creation and sexuality should divide the Church? Clearly the answer is yes, but then the application is difficult to the point of getting cross-eyed. So much depends upon relationships and context. More and more, we will find ourselves in the position that, say on vacation, our choice will be between feminist worship that is doctrinally orthodox and non-feminist worship that is liberal and/or sacramentalist. I choose the former regularly.
Concerning funerals, particularly, there is so very much that can be awful that truth spoken about God and salvation, and some little bit of sobriety couple with even a modicum of honesty about the deceased spoken by a woman is almost the best you can hope for, nowadays.
Anyhow, I cannot advise you about your grandmother because I do not know you or her. I’d ask my pastor, if I were you, but I tend to think I would attend. Love,
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I appreciate the response Pastor Bayly. I will certainly discuss it with my pastor. Thank you.
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The Bible does not command that women not lead worship. The way we do church now was not identical to the churches during Paul’s time. There was no “worship leader” position as there is now so the Bible literally doesn’t address the issue. The passage you’ve described was relevant to that specific church in that specific cultural context at that time. (1 Tim 2:12). Your viewpoint highly limits gifted women within the church. It is also arrogant and demeaning.
It’s also quite sad that you devalue the contribution of female leaders in the Bible. It’s clear that you don’t respect Miriam, Deborah or any of the women Paul described as valuable leaders during his work.
Submission between genders is most important in the context of marriage. The way we do contemporary church does not warrant the submission of women to men but rather the submission of ourselves to each other. (Ephesians 5:21-33).
Of course, my words will more than likely be discounted because I am a woman. But, I will speak for any that will read through these comments and feel oppressed by your words instead of empowered to use their gifts.
Welcome to our forum, Sara. As far as I can tell, you think that 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is entirely irrelevant to our lives today and should just be removed from the Bible. Here it is, just to be clear:
A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
You accuse Tim of being arrogant and demeaning, and of limiting gifted women within the church. And yet Tim is the one who takes Scripture at face value and trusts that it is God’s good Word to us. You seem to want to ignore it, and that’s the height of arrogance.
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I did not say anything about removing passages of scripture from the Bible. I presented another very commonly held viewpoint that emphasizes the specificity of this passage to specific women in this specific church at this specific time. During the time Paul wrote this, women were uneducated and treated differently. You must tlook at the whole chapter as well. And the whole book. It is focused on the “false teaching” going on. Paul is telling Timothy to basically put an end to it. If you read on in the book, there are a lot of widows and problems with the women at this church. They are idle, busybodies, sensual…lots of things said. He even says some of them “turned to Satan”. They were probably in no state to be teaching and could have been directly involved in the false teaching. They could have been disruptive and calling out during gatherings. You could reverse the genders in these passages given the right context and cultural situation
You accuse me of wanting to ignore this passage. I don’t ignore it but I hold it up to the context in which it was written.
Also my main issue was with the application of oppressive one-verse theology to our modern “worship leader” position within churches today. Even if I agree with you and decide “it’s evil for all women everywhere to teach and have authority in church” Can’t a primary pastoral authority be enough? Must the worship leader be a pastor? Can a woman worship leader technically be “under authority” of the lead pastor? I would answer yes. Best practices in our modern churches would be to illuminate the “worship pastor” title entirely and go back to “worship leader”. This would open these positions to women more broadly.
Twice you have made this claim. It is false. In 1 Tim 2:12-14 the Apostle Paul gives a universal requirement and states the reason why:
12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
That’s the “can’t.” As you made clear in your other post that you didn’t only want to hear the negative, here is the positive that goes along with it:
1 Timothy 2:15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
You may reject these verses, and claim what you will about them, but you may not do so here. Why? Because I’m a pastor, and God’s instructions to pastors like Timothy and myself through the Apostle Paul are clear. We are to silence false teaching. Feel free to send me a private message if you’d like recommendations for faithful biblical teaching on these verses.
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