Although cost has been public shaming of older president and shooting of slightly younger one, so thankful for what God has done in our nation past couple weeks. We wallow in our sin, but God has mercy. #GodblessUSA
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Excellent short explanation and warning re so-called “Christian Nationalism” Christian Nationalism and lusting after political power
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With over 50,000 views, the most used and accurate source for Search/Pulpit Committees of which men they should not call as their pastor in the Presbyterian Church in America. Additional documents were just added with a note. If you have a friend in the PCA, send them the link: PCA Revoice hall of infamy: pastors/elders who protested Pastor Warhurst - Warhorn Media
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Dusty Deevers Christian Nationalist guy who works as Oklahoma state politician while pastoring a church. Soldier involved in civilian affairs. (2Tim2:3-4)
Doc said I should run for office couple weeks ago during physical. Always a temptation to pastors. Don’t fall for it.
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You’ve got me curious how to draw the line.
Question 1: What about other bivocational pastors? Are they involved in civilian affairs?
Question 2: What about Abraham Kuyper? Was he?
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Kuyper resigned his pastorate to join parliament. Dutch law at the time forbid men from being both a minister and a member of parliament simultaneously.
Edit: it appears this law is still in place, functioning to preserve separate spheres of authority.
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Thanks. I don’t know the history. I just remembered he was a pastor and became PM of the Netherlands. I wouldn’t have been surprised to learn he resigned, even without the law. It seems exceedingly hard to do both. But the question still stands. Was he entangling himself in civilian affairs by resigning, and should he have stayed a pastor?
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He remained an elder at first, then resigned after a few years because he considered it too difficult to faithfully serve both.
Having spent a lot of time reading his works and trying to understand the history of the Church in the Netherlands during that period, it seems to me that his transition into the civil magistrate was broadly helpful and useful to the Dutch Christians. He gave the Calvinists an organized political platform they had been lacking. His long term impact is complicated and controversial.
His resignation as a minister did not end his influence over the Reformed churches. We know that he continued to publish theological works. His informal authority in the Reformed churches was so powerful that in the late 1880’s, a decade after his resignation as a minister, he helped lead hundreds of churches to break away from the State Church due to the liberalization of its ministers. And if that wasn’t proof enough of his informal theological authority, hundreds of those churches formally adopted a change to the Belgic Confession (Article 36) on his advice and theological convictions alone. Article 36 concerned the role of the magistrate in fighting against heresy and the anti-Christ (a massive amendment for churches to adopt given that they had no obligation to submit to his theological convictions and by doing so would be departing from the historic confession).
Given his oversized role in influencing the Reformed churches ecclesiastically and theologically, it may have been better for him to remain a minister. At the same time, I’m not sure his theological influence over hundreds of Reformed churches would have been possible if he hadn’t become a nationally known magistrate. They went hand in hand, for better and for worse.
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Joseph and Jacob, I’ve responded to similar questions on FB, which I’ll dump here:
First, I added this main post there:
TB: Men say they don’t know what I’m talking about below, so to be explicit. In his letter to Pastor Timothy, the Apostle Paul gives these commands: “And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier in active service entangles himself in civilian affairs, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier” (2Timothy 2:2-4).
Calvin comments: “Here Paul speaks to the pastors of the Church in the person of Timothy. The statement is general, but is specially adapted to the ministers of the word. First, let them see what things are inconsistent with their office…”
Civil authority is a specific calling as is church authority, and the man ordained by God to church office and called by a congregation needs to honor that calling with the commitment it demands. Making money tentmaking as one shepherds the sheep day and night, house to house, is possible. Governing the state while governing the Church is a grazed woodlot: neither good woodlot nor good grazing.
Then I responded to comments under this second post as follows:
FB READER: I’m just curious, what would you say about Military Chaplains? While I know Chaplains aren’t magistrates, they do serve in the Military, and most of them have to be ordained ministers to be commissioned as Chaplains. Do you see this in a similar way as you do Ministers serving as both Ministers and Magistrates? Or would that be categorically different in your view?
TB: Maybe, but the paucity of precedents in church history should be a very strong influence in the direction of his not doing so. And this is fighting in a war—not taking up the calling of politician. Civil office is not an emergency, nor a side gig. Love,
FB READER: Broadly speaking, I would agree with this but there’s a time to stand in the gap when no righteous men will fill this role. I believe there are exceptions to this. A magistrate is not a priest, nor a priest a magistrate but should a minister pick up arms if we were in a war to defend his family and nation?
TB: Maybe, but the paucity of precedents in church history should be a very strong influence in the direction of his not doing so. And this is fighting in a war—not taking up the calling of politician. Civil office is not an emergency, nor a side gig. Love,
Then under the first earlier FB post, a bunch of scornful comments, but also these:
FB READER: Wasn’t the example of the founding fathers was for those who were pastors to resign their pastorate if called upon to serve in the government? How can he serve both callings?
TB: Yes, Jonathan; John Owen was Oliver Cromwell’s chaplain. But we’re not talking about war, here; we’re talking about splitting a man between the calling of church authority as church officer and civil authority as civil officer. Of course, many men like Dever turn from the the church to the state, and some are able to hold onto their church while governing the state. But this is precisely what the Apostle Paul warns against. Love,
FB READER: Were Calvin and John Knox also running afoul of 2 Timothy 2:3-4. They were not necessarily civil magistrates per say but they certain were involved in civil affairs. Dusty Deevers is a good brother in the faith. I think he’s doing good work.
TB: there is no smallest comparison between what Calvin was and what you are recommending here, Joseph. And it matters not a whit who does or doesn’t like this man or how good he is. Mike Huckabee is real nice and good and has a good daughter, but it should sadden us whenever a pastor moves from preaching the gospel to ruling the world. Love,
TB TO ANOTHER COMMENT: it’s not complicated, but I posted making the Biblical text and point clear. John Calvin was not a civil authority. He was a pastor. The callings are discrete, so take your pick
As for Kuiper, we always have to beware of replacing rules with exceptions. No one wants to face up to the Apostle Paul’s exhortation, but that is necessary. Good on him though that he gave up his pastoral authority and calling when he decided to take up civil authority and calling. Love,
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As a general principle, I don’t think a faithful minister should resign from shepherding the city of God in order to govern the city of Man.
There are exceptions, I’m sure. But there is no shepherd I know today that I would personally trust to do it. Plus, we are in such a great need of faithful shepherds that it would be sad to see a good man trade his reward in heaven for fame and money on earth.
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True and amen.
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Brothers, I don’t want to discourage anyone from proclaiming the Law of God and authority of God to any nation or people. Full stop. Still, I am deeply concerned about the absence of serious work in the church where the church is fallen and rotting. A rotten church cannot reform a rotten world, and it is my judgment that the church herself is the problem. Not the world. I could almost guarantee that most of the churches represented by those full-on in support of Christian Nationalism are ignorant of the Scriptural doctrines at issue in America, today. The key is God’s Creation mandates. Keep your eyes there. Love
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Actually, DEI female director/detail female agents is what’s made a mockery of the Secret Service. Time to admit it.
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Female Secret Service direct result pastors not preaching Creation Order—God created Adam first then Eve.
Complementarians abandon world by refusing to be salt/light re male leadership/authority. We lie saying Creation Order only for Christian church/home. #goodshepherd
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A little honesty built on historical record.
The January 6 defendants are the same men who led the American Revolution.
What was the difference?
The American Revolution was commoners opposing the English Ruling Class oppression of taxation without representation whereas Jan 6 was commoners opposing American Ruling Class subverting our elections.
Their subversion was not by ballots but by BigTech and Deep State’s deceptions and censorship. It’s now a matter of the historical record, but no one cares and there’s never been the slightest accountability.
If you celebrate Independence Day, it’s hard to imagine why you would not be grateful for the commoners in jail because of Jan 6th. I wish Pres Trump had stopped it, but not because they were wrong. Rather, because it was clear what the narrative would be.
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A warning. Without humility & repentance, Pres Trump will be same man as last term. We are seeing him now in a softer more sympathetic light. Their visceral hatred & persecution of him helps w/that.
But like all of us, he’s a deeply flawed man. The voice of a man, not of a God.
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On opposite side of country, civil authorities of NH stand against child mutilation and abuse. Defend women and girls from male oppression. Well done! NH governor signs gender identity-related bills into law
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Seriously?
1776?
When in the course of human events?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/20/magazine/us-political-violence.html