Vaccine Mandates

The Public Square
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And maybe this is what @JosephSpurgeon is really asking: do we have any room or right to push back against our schools, businesses, cities, landlords, our employers pushing this vaccine (or anything else Covid/woke/LGBT) at us?

And that’s where I think we have to make careful but clear distinctions. I oppose a vaccine mandate, in this particular instance, on ethical grounds. Which means I oppose vaccination status, again, in this instance, being used to determine pretty much anything. And I’m fighting to oppose it as it’s coming. But, and this is key, that’s not the same thing as a religious exemption.

We need to be very careful about using religious exemptions, especially if our religion doesn’t actually warrant it. Remember back when pastors used to opt out of social security, for ‘religious reasons’? Disagreeing with something, not liking something, even having principled objections to something is not the same as warranting a religious exemption.

A religious exemption means we understand our religion to forbid a particular course of action. @jander’s conscience on vaccines might approach a legitimate exemption (though I’m not persuaded it necessarily has to). But ‘tyranny’ isn’t a religious exemption. ‘I don’t like it’ or ‘I don’t think it’s necessary’ isn’t a religious exemption.

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That’s true as well, but it requires very careful evaluation of what is and is not tyranny. And whether or not it’s a sin for us to submit to the governing authorities in this particular case.

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I’m probably already in danger of @jander’s view of Emerson, but these are things I’ve had rather bottled up lately.

As to whether to not there is a legitimate way to respond to undue restrictions, we need to think carefully about the ramifications of our actions. It may be appropriate to leave our current situations (job, home, education, etc) rather than submit to certain requirements. It may be appropriate to ignore certain requirements and wait to be fired rather than comply. It may be appropriate to opt out of certain medical treatments. But we need to be prepared for that reality (loss of employment, home, education, health, etc) rather than insisting it’s within our rights then being surprised when we face the consequences for our actions. And if there is legitimate tyranny going on, then we need to be prepared for our actions indeed having ramifications that are unpleasant.

Suffering persecution for our faith, facing the consequences for civil disobedience (which is intended to bring to light the injustice in a particular course of action through suffering the consequences), and risking consequences while simply ignoring or even fighting against laws we believe are unjust (i.e. hiding Jews in the Holocaust) are all very different things. Our theology has massive implications for all three categories, but they’re still not the same. We don’t do ourselves any services by confusing these three categories.

On @jander’s concern about vaccines, I am tremendously sympathetic. There is great evil and bloodshed going on in the name of scientific/medical research. The idea that our society hates the Nazi’s is getting increasingly ironic. Contemporary American and British medical research is getting more barbaric each year. And where are the pastors working through medical ethics with medical students at notable medical universities??? Praise God for Dr Spaetti’s continuing legacy… But we need to think through our avenues of objection very carefully. If refusing this vaccine on medical grounds is warranted, is refusing all vaccines? If refusing all vaccines is warranted, is refusing any product which uses foetal tissue? If that is warranted, is refusing any producer who does business with anyone who uses foetal tissue? While I wish more believers were willing to entertain the conceptual consequences of refusing the mark of the beast (i.e. being shut out from society) as were many reformed Christians in 1662, we need to be very careful in our analysis to make sure that this sort of step is indeed necessary. And if we’re convinced it is so, are we willing to stick to such a decision? If opting out of modern western medicine is necessary on ethical grounds, that means no taking our kids to hospital with broken arms. No cancer treatments. If we’re not convinced we actually need to go all the way, maybe we’re not fully convinced that such a radical approach is necessary in the first place. I’m not arguing against such radical approaches if they’re necessary; only that we think them through carefully and consistently first.

I’m not making accusations or impugning motives. Please understand that. But I think we are wading into very significant issues here.

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Consistency is exactly what I see lacking in approaches such as “Some Moral Principles Regarding the Use of Vaccinations”. I appreciate the principles, but why is the focus only on vaccines? Nearly all medicines are tested with fetal cell lines. Not to mention clothing, furniture, etc. And what about doing business with corporations that fund Planned Parenthood? The only group I see capable of consistently applying such principles is the Amish. Maybe a rejection of modernity is the solution, but I haven’t seen that position argued anywhere.

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Because, as the document clearly states, a member of the church requested the presbytery deal with that particular issue. Because sheep are being put in positions where they are either being pressured or required to be vaccinated—whether that be military, vocation, government, schools, etc. You’re not arguing for consistency; you’re arguing for the confusion of categories which leads to the absurd conclusion that we go out of the world (1 Corinthians 5:10). A foreign substance mandated to be injected into one’s body ≠ to one patronizing a business that funds PP.

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I’m not so sure. Revelation 13 sounds a lot like what you call ‘absurd’. The question is not whether we think it’s reasonable, but whether or not it’s necessary.

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I will throw this thought into the malestrom.

Hate lockdowns? I do. Dislike masks? I do. Want to worship in person? Want to sing? Want to see your friends and live a normal life? I do.

There are two ways to get rid of Covid 19. One is to allow it to spread through natural infection, which confers natural immunity. For the sake of argument, let’s assume the natural immunity is long lasting. If you do that, hundreds of thousands more people will have to die. This is why authorities kept up masks and restrictions for as long as they did, knowing that vaccines were being developed.

Now that vaccines are available, the herd immunity necessary to end the pandemic can be achieved through vaccination. Instead of giving what, 70% or 80% of the population the virus, and if it kills you tough luck, we can get to that same point through vaccination.

Herd immunity is how it ends. You get there through either natural infection, the slower and more deadly way, or through vaccination, the much safer way.

Live in Realville. These are the choices. Whether right or wrong, civil authorities in this country and all around the world have up-ended their societies to fight Covid 19. It’s possible they all over reacted and all are wrong. Historians and epidemiologists will be studying that question for decades. To be conservative, let’s say they were 50% right in what they did. Let’s also say the official death count is off by a factor of 2. A mere 300k people died instead of 600k. Great.

Regardless, this is the situation we are in. We need to go back to normal. Vaccination is how you do it.

There is no other solution. There is no other way you get normal life back, because, whether right or wrong, people above us with more knowledge and authority decided to up end normal life to deal with the pandemic. The longer the pandemic goes on, the less crazy that decision appears, to be frank. Regardless, we are pipsqueaks on the Internet with an opinion and no responsibility.

If you want your life back, get vaccinated. To me, it’s that simple. But mine looks to be the minority view in the Reformed world, although I think many silently agree with me.

Edit: why is it that public health authorities haven’t made the case for vaccines in the kind of terms I just did? I don’t know. It drives me crazy.

Why do they undermine confidence in the vaccines? Why do they delay them? Why did they wait so long to tell vaccinated people they did not have to wear masks? These are all questions I would love answers to, but have none.

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No clue what you’re saying brother. Can you clarify?

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Ben are vaccines really going to put an end to the government overreach. If vaccines were the way to end this, why are they now suggesting vaccinated people wear masks. I am not convinced the vaccine is working. I am also not convinced that many of these civil magistrates want to let go of their power.

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Revelation 13 and God‘a people rejecting the mark of the beast (participation in idolatry) looks a lot like Christians opting out of society, ‘going out of the world.’ And there have been times in Christian history when precisely that has been necessary (periods of Roman persecution and 1662 are the easy ones).

My point is that such opting out is society is not absurd; Jesus warned that as much would sometimes happen (‘Blessed are you when all men hate you for my sake…’). The question is whether or not it’s necessary now, in this instance.

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I agree with you that many civil magistrates seem to want to drag this thing out as long as possible.

I assumed conspiratorial motive in March and April of 2020. The economy was great and Trump was running for re election. The timing of everything was very suspicious to me.

That conspiratorial mindset was wrong. Actually the virus was real and dangerous. I belligerated against authority without good reason, dividing the church and grieving faithful men, many of whom write for Warhorn. Ok. Lesson learned. I was wrong.

I want to avoid making the mistake a second time. It may be they are trying to hold on to power. Or it could be that they are right again this time. I don’t know enough to know.

It is not clear to me that we honor Christ and Hid Word by refusing to be vaccinated. Sometimes you are persecuted for righteousness but sometimes you get persecuted because you’re a jackass. Based on my personal behavior this last year, I’d say I’m more jackass than saint.

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Ben, I dont know that you were completely wrong. The vaccines magically get approved days after the election. Just because the first use of covid for power abuse has passed does not mean that they are not going to keep using it. This abuse of power will go on as long as the American people allow it. One of the reasons I don’t trust the vaccine is how they played politics with it to undermine Trump.

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Then is the issue an ethical one regarding respect for life or a political one regarding personal liberty? I found the document helpful in fact, but I would like to see more on how to apply these two recommendations:

(ii) That God Almighty uses means, and that Vaccination as a Preventative Medicine is a lawful
means to seek to prevent infectious diseases in individuals.

(iii) When it is known that a Vaccine has been developed, and/or tested, and/or produced
using Aborted Foetal cell lines and/or their derivatives, it should be avoided.

They seem contradictory because nearly all vaccines are tested using fetal cell lines. In this regard the dilemma seems analogous to climate change. The onus is placed on those least able to bear it. Consumers are being asked in one case to understand vaccine development and in another to reduce their carbon footprint. In this case, shouldn’t the pressure be upon the vaccine manufacturers? I would like to see a Christian response that involves alternatives to fetal cell research.

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This can be, and in my view is, a false dichotomy. If so, resolving it may be a bit of a trip into (so-called) weird but certainly need not be a capitulation to either lack of truthfulness nor to lack of respect for others (including in governmental authority) nor to lack of Christian charity and unity.
The failure to fully accomplish this on the part of many on many sides has been both saddening and slightly confusing to me. I guess its been a strange year and a half. On the other hand, the levels of manipulation that have and are being employed on societies is actually staggering. The fact that we’ve only witnessed the breaking down of things that we have so far is a wonderful reason for gratitude and ultimate hope.

As for your comment here, don’t worry too much. I’ve read many of your contributions here going back into early COVID times and feel very confident in the ability of those here to not be bothered by challenging discussions. As is illustrated, how one evaluates the overall nature of what’s going on has necessary bearing on how one evaluates the solutions needed. Another reason for optimism, imo. The same Lord who made the seemingly bizarre decision to put Matthew and Simon the Zealot on the same ministry team is still sovereignly in charge of all that unfolds in the odd circumstances of 2021 and onward.
Making this statement could be viewed as putting a large amount of significance on the events of the COVID era. Such is my custom, although I’m only attempting my best evaluation. May the Lord’s words be shown true, “…wisdom is justified by all her children.”

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I’ve been desiring to see more of just that type of discussion in relation to COVID. Or maybe more accurately, the constellation of COVID-related matters that will invariably be tied in to “the pandemic” over coming years or more. I certainly believe such discussions and decisions are in everyone’s future and I, for one, feel a bit trepidatious about how best to communicate an appropriate response to such a complex of issues. At the same time, I’m very hopeful and optimistic overall. Maybe you could say I’m rather looking forward to victory amidst the un-ending crazy. That’s in the Lord’s hands ofc. but my point is as encouragement to face a (possibly very likely) dark set of situations with fearless cheerfulness. Not that I consider myself prepared along many lines but understanding of a situation comes, at least partly, before preparation and both before final victory.

Like others, I also expect eventual mandating of proof of positive vaccination status for entry into the aforementioned places whether truly necessary or not. Or more accurately, I fully expect the attempt. (Led by corporate dictate before any direct governmental decree) The outcome depends on many factors.

As to thinking about problems/solutions and counting the cost of decisions regarding the above, it shouldn’t be neglected to point out that we a very far from complete techno-run autocracy currently and really should make use of the many blessings afforded. For instance, should such scenarios develop in businesses and large private-run entities it should be remembered that a large number of them receive some form of state and local benefits/considerations. I don’t know how much that the public considers an act of hostility or restriction really has to be tolerated from Wal-mart, Kroger or Menard’s while still paying ongoing subsidies to the aid of those same corporations. Learning about recourse regarding even private-run companies and an unwillingness to ever support any leader for office who will give any voter-derived benefits to a company while simultaneously allowing said company to serve as the very means by which increasingly tyrannical impositions are rolled out onto the public might be a very good place to start. :grinning:

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President Trump and Vice President Pence were the ones who pushed for the fast vaccine development and rollout known as Operation Warp Speed. The vaccines should be seen as Trump and Pence’s achievement.

I do believe the delay in announcing the successful vaccine from Pfizer was Deep State plotting against the president to prevent him from taking credit before the election. It’s tough to say how many votes it may have cost because so many voted early, and most of those who voted early voted for Biden. Those who voted on election day voted Trump.

This is where the conspiracy theorizing about the vaccines breaks down. The vaccines were developed during Trump’s administration at his administration’s behest. Trump repeatedly promised there would be a successful vaccine and the media made fun of him for it.

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The only conspiracy theory I subscribe to related to this whole thing is that the dems and China worked together to get Trump out of office by releasing a known deadly agent. I mean they accused the man for 3 years of colluding with Russia and couldn’t get his approval numbers down, so they had to cheat to get him out.

I’m not a fan of Trump, but I think that’s what happened.

And now that they “won” the election, they’ll just keep pushing for the great reset. It’s not rocket science, in my opinion. The vaccine is what it is, controversy over fetal tissue and all. I’m still looking for a conservative who will vote against social security and the fed, pushing the Overton window severely to the right. But alas.

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For what it’s worth (likely not much), a flash from the past on this sort of thing (i.e. mandates) . . .

When I was 12 back in 1959, Dad got a promotion and a transfer from Needles, CA to Amarillo, TX. We settled in in October of that year, and Mom got busy enrolling us into the nearby public schools. We immediately hit a road block.

Seems that a previous Texas Legislature had passed a statue to enforce a public health policy, namely that all children in the Texas public schools would be vaccinated against smallpox. The school nurse and her staff would be required to inspect every child’s arm to insure that it bore a scar from the vaccination. The necessity of a scar was enshrined into the statute!

My brother and I had been vaccinated against smallpox, but it had occurred when we were infants, not even a year old. After ten or more years of growth, the scar (if there had been one at all) had faded. We had thorough vaccination records from credible medical authorities (smallpox, diphtheria, whooping cough, measles, polio, etc.). Mom repeatedly presented these to the school nurse, to the nurse’s school district boss. All to no avail. Their hands were tied, they said. Re-vaccination wouldn’t work - it would not produce a scar. Or if it did, it would not do so in time for us to get enrolled in school.

Eventually, the idiocy of this catch-22 became too much, and the nurses at the two schools took matters into their own hands and declared that they saw what could pass for a scar. After all, the statute delegated the decision to the local school nurse! Woot! Woot!

So far as I know or have ever learned, the smallpox statute was never protested or resisted by anyone in Texas. I have no idea if it’s still on the books or not. Surely not, since smallpox was declared eradicated sometime back in the Eighties.

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I wish it was easier to type out a summary of my own speculation regarding what could be going on regarding the Trump administration development of “Warp Speed” vaccines. However, it is speculative, not exactly brief, based on things drawn from other’s work and somewhat off-topic. Therefore I probably shouldn’t make that attempt. Suffice it to say that if one accepts the possibility of more concerted nefarious dealings in regard to the pandemic or even what could have been attempted utilizing a vaccine under such conditions with others exercising authority over the executive branch instead of Mr. Trump, I believe there is likelihood that what went under the banner of the military-administered Operation Warp Speed was an effort to safeguard against such possibilities. I understand that I’m engaging in speculation and could be in error at numerous points but believe there are good reasons to give consideration to things of that nature.

One rather interesting man related to all of that is the Army’s General “Gus” Perna who headed up “OPWASP”. I remember this press conference from November of last year. It’s interesting to watch, both because it’s nice to hear President Trump speak instead of relying on what the media says about him and because of the other main speakers which included Gen. Perna and also Dr. Moncef Slaoui, former head of vaccines at GSK. I have no trust for Dr. Slaoui. I believe Gen. Perna when he says, “to me, what is Operation Warp Speed about? It is about saving lives.” I guess there’s no way around the conclusion of admitting that my speculation is along the lines of “keep your friends close and your enemies closer.” Still, very interesting to watch. Tough to believe that this was only 9 months back. :crazy_face:Feels like a decade. Perna speaks around 22:00 min. mark if anyone’s feeling nostalgic. :grinning:

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Your depiction of Realville is conspicuously naturalistic. You speak of sickness and plague as if they are merely a biological matter, with mere biological solutions. I understand this is how the world understands these things, but is this how the Bible teaches us to think? “If you want to be rid of sickness, just solve the biological problem.”

Friend, where is God in your Realville?

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