This perplexes me. I said nothing about whether fat Christians have or do not have any guilt or shame about their condition. The response is a non-sequitur to what I actually said, which was that the problem is not being actively addressed by (most) church leadership. I’m sure many sinners have guilt and shame over their sin. As The Grace of Shame contends, this is actually a blessing. Maybe the homosexual has guilt and shame over their lifestyle. Does that mean we shouldn’t address the sin if we see it continuing daily? No!!!
As for the rest of your post, let me say “Hear, hear!” It is wonderfully composed and referenced. Thank you for the time you put in to it. I think we are all aware there exists a whole world of sin on the other end of the spectrum. You have the Whole Foods crowd on one end, and the Walmart crowd on the other. We shop at Walmart in my community, and have no Whole Foods in the area, so perhaps that is what guides my perspective on the issue.
Surely Pastor Bayly you are aware of the “body positivy” and “big is beautiful” campaigns that are being pushed by the mainstream culture, no? Fat shaming is quickly becoming anathema.
Dear John, pls don’t be discouraged by this discussion. Your work is helpful and has elicited lots of other helpful comments. As for the fat movement, I take Joseph’s view of it. It’s maybe like Johnson’s proverbial dog walking on hind legs: the wonder of it isn’t that some dogs can do it well but that any dog would do it at all. So no, I don’t think it’s a serious thing at all. It’s more like a gay man getting his flame on. Love,
I am by no means an old man, but I remember a time when the shame of homosexuality was almost universally taken for granted. The movie Ace Ventura: Pet Detective is essentially (spoiler alert) an extended transsexual joke. Seinfeld’s “Not that there’s anything wrong with that” was funny precisely because it played on the obvious double-standard that everyone knew homosexuality to be shameful, but that politically correct opinion among urban elites demanded that it not be. The cognitive dissonance was the joke.
So, all that to say, it’s hard to tell which left-wing fads are going to catch fire and which are going to fizzle in the pan, but I wouldn’t count “body positivity” out as another instance of proper shame being suppressed by our culture in unrighteousness.
Thank you for the work you put into an excellent post.
Table fellowship is a powerful form of fellowship. This is likely what our Lord was doing when he declared all foods clean, and clearly what God the Father was doing to re-emphasize this message to Peter in Acts (“Rise, kill and eat!”).
Modern fad diets and dietary restrictions break this table fellowship. I had occasion a year or so ago to listen to a vegan coworker complain about how a former company of hers catered barbecue and she was “unable” to eat any of the foods: The mashed potatoes and cole slaw had milk, and the green beans had bacon. She isn’t Muslim or Jewish or Hindu. She just up and decided one day not to eat the things that her people eat, thus setting herself apart.
“If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake.” 1 Cor 10:27
You’re right, my whole post is a bit of a non sequitur. Maybe I’m on a hair-trigger when it comes to food nannies. I grant that you could very well be correct, that gluttony is not being addressed with the gospel.
Accounting for regional and socioeconomic differences, and assuming that we’re not talking about churches that don’t address ANY sin at all, perhaps your analogy to homosexuality is helpful. But shame only has grace attached when it is connected to something God calls sin, and obesity is not a sin. God does not require us to keep an eye on the world’s definition of healthiness to honor Him. Sure, there are sins that can cause obesity, but as you referred to in the OP there are conditions that can as well, and there’s also just normal life; aging, motherhood, and the way our metabolisms are.
That’s why I found it helpful to separate gluttony (sin) and obesity (not sin). Because the world attaches so much shame to obesity I think pastors are wise to avoid talking generally about obesity and address it at its root (sensual indulgence of food by thin and fat alike) and individually with sensitivity.
And maybe it’s a regional difference, but I’ve been in churches where the sin of finding excess pleasure and comfort in food is addressed fairly regularly (even from the pulpit) while something like effeminacy would NEVER come up. Food seems easier to address because there’s godly AND worldly motivation to cut back.
Also might be worth noting that I shop at Walmart with no other grocery store within 20 miles. Out here in the sticks the Walmart crowd is getting picky too (at least a subset who also run in Christian circles). Maybe it’s an affectation. Some of the people I referred obliquely to in my long post have large families supported by a single income which could very well be less than $20k per year.
An elder qualification is to be of good reputation among outsiders. Policing that sentiment can be all kinds of slippery slope, but I will note that many people have a hard time listening to someone who is fat. If one peruses firearms training videos on YouTube, many of the comments on the videos are disparagement of the trainer for being overweight. (Some of them aren’t even very portly by the standards of 2020 America.) Larry Vickers, who is anyone’s definition of a warrior among warriors, felt he had to do a whole video justifying his weight. (Short version: When Uncle Sam was done with his body, it was pretty much shot and he lives with a lifetime of leg and back pain that makes exercise very challenging.)
I don’t know that I have a point here, but this is a thought that has been provoked by this discussion.
I’m also really struck by how similar this discussion is to questions of effeminacy and similar. It’s a bundle of sins that are more sins of degree than black and white sins. There are pitfalls on all sides, and many seem to argue that the complexity of solutions, and even tension between solutions, means that we can’t acknowledge a problem.
Agreed. Greed and enslavement to the flesh is found in both the thin and the obese. It is sin in each.
On the other hand, obesity is a consequence of many things, some of them innocent (old age, when metabolisms diminish; hormonal syndromes, insulin resistance, diminution of insulin-producing beta cells which die earlier than than the rest of the body). And, of course, there are sinful things which generate obesity. So, obesity may be the consequence of sin, except when it’s not.
If you wish to see a flamboyant and vicious satire on obesity as a consequence of gluttony (TRIGGER WARNING!! YOU MUST HAVE A STRONG STOMACH TO GET THROUGH THIS), view the Monty Python scene featuring Mr. Creosote.
Moderator: feel free to delete the link if you judge it to be too abrasive for tender sensibilities.
Tonight, I poured myself a bowl of cereal. It was the last of the cereal in the box. After I poured my normal portion, and determined that there was too little in the box for another full bowl, I splurged and poured the rest into my bowl.
Because of this thread, I at least thought twice about it.
Love you, brothers.
EDIT: I just now noticed John’s tinfoil hat profile picture. Hilarious.
Ha. This is what explains the disconnect on this thread. The target of the original post were those who consider the entire box of cereal as being one portion…
I had a friend from Taiwan that studied in America and gained weight while over here. Before going back she told me that she needed to lose weight or all of her friends and family would constantly make comments about how fat she had become. She was perhaps 15 lbs overweight? As someone who at the time was also overweight it was a shock to me. No one had ever mentioned my 50 extra lbs in my life, but here she wouldn’t stop hearing it for days. She lost the weight.
Many years ago, I fell in with a group of Indian friends (as in, from India). 5 pounds’ gain was plenty to get them ribbing each other about their weight. It was good-natured, but it was also clear that being fat was frowned upon.
