Nathan’s somewhat more charitable than I am. I think many Christian leaders simply hope they’ll be spared the wrath of the mob if they’re on the right side of history today. Outrage at all things Trump is an easy way to demonstrate ones bona fides. Men like Russel Moore have no patience for any notion of American exceptionalism.
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That’s me.
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I have no problem believing that most prosecutions at the highest levels are politically motivated. This is how power operates and it shouldn’t shock us. But let’s not pretend this is some new thing that just showed up in 2016. This has been true for a hundred years at least, since Al Capone fell out of favor with the establishment and was indicted on tax fraud.
But making that abstract assessment from where we sit is very different than someone who has just been indicted for tax fraud by the FBI claiming victimhood and crying foul. For a person who has been caught in an investigation, repentance and humility are the right response.
You are prepared to argue that a man who behaved like a mobster during an investigation should just walk, since you can point to a powerful family who has not been given their justice despite decades of their public corruption. Or are we wanting to end all prosecutions and commute all sentences since our justice system is to corrupt and the convictions of powerful men are inevitably political? Quite frankly, that is an insane position to take.
We can’t have it both ways. We can’t point to how corrupt things are, and then cry foul when we embrace and excuse that same corruption (“but everyone else is doing it!”) and suffer the consequences. The constant tensions present in your defenses boggle my mind. “Conservatives are losing because they won’t fight dirty!”… “We support him because he fights!”…”Look how unfair they are being to him, investigating him for using their dirty tricks!”. One could be forgiven for thinking that perhaps embracing dirty tricks isn’t an effective method for actually accomplishing things. Sure it works sometimes. Sure some people get away with it. But when you work overtime to make enemies of huge swaths of the people in power, and have no integrity at all to begin with, you can’t complain to much when the hammer drops.
I couldn’t agree more. And I am doing my best to fight well. And we can disagree about how to best go about it. Spare me the character assassination going on up thread accusing those of us who are critical of President Trump of just wanting to curry favor with the “important people”. I am not accusing those who support Trump of being full of nasty hate, and just enjoying hurling insults at your enemies vicariously. This sort of uncharitable motive judging may make us feel good about ourselves, but doesn’t help anyone.
I think Trump has been extremely effective in certain areas, places where his chaotic style seems to benefit him. However, I think President Trump’s real super power is his lack of shame.
Most people have a natural need to be respected and liked. People are natural man fearers. Part of the attraction of men like Pastor Tim Bayly (I don’t know what terms of respect are common in this community) and Pastor Douglas Wilson is that, while I’m sure they still have that human desire for people to think well of them, they have chosen to build their courage and stand by their convictions and cultivate their fear of God until young men like myself look to them in a sort of awe. They have weight and they command respect. There is a aura of consistency in their lives and one has the sense that they have no “skeletons in the closet” to rob them of moral certainty and spiritual power. The world trembles before such men.
The reason the world trembles is because there are no handles to control them, and shame has no power over them. They cannot be manipulated and blackmailed, and they just don’t care enough about anyone’s opinion for it to deflect their course from their convictions. To get to that place, and to live in that place, is costly and painful and personally demanding. It makes me think of the lines describing Aragon in the Appendix to the LOTR, “he was elven-wise, and there was a light in his eyes that when they were kindled few could endure.”
But there is another way to overcome the power of shame. It is cultivate within myself the cynical nihilism that after all everyone has their secrets. Sure I may have some serious vices, but doesn’t everyone? Who are you to judge me?? Never back down, never apologize, never humble yourself, never repent. When confronted, double down. And you discover that most people are cowards. When faced with this sort of bold shamelessness, they will back down pretty quickly.
And it’s so much easier than spending to time to build virtue. It skips all the hard parts, but it has most of the benefits. Men look to you in awe. You become their champion. But the deep weakness of your fundamental lack of character will come back to destroy you. It’s not a ruse that can last forever…
Oh the irony. They play hardball, so we play hardball, but now we’re gonna hang all the traitors from a tall tree. And implicit in all this is the assumption that if we were in the FBI, we would do better. Now we can defend all the current President’s shenanigans. We can bend the rules however we like, since the other guys are doing it.
If you had been a federal agent in 2016, and Hillary had won, you are telling me you wouldn’t have been willing to bend the rules a bit to finally catch her in her crimes? But now on the other hand suddenly the rules apply again and you wouldn’t pursue any of those suspicions because you don’t want to overturn “the will of the people”? But if we were in DC, we wouldn’t participate in some seditious plot to overthrow a duly elected President.
And of course you would absolutely not bend the rules to get the warrants you want to pursue the intelligence you need to catch the corrupt politician, right? But you’ve just finished telling me how the Left’s corruption changes the whole game! Quite frankly, just reading your arguments, it seems to me that you are saying you absolutely would be willing to set aside any standards of conduct and pesky laws that got in the way of you pursuing the defeat of the enemy.
All your arguments sound exactly like the photographic negative of the “Resistance”. They believe that President Trump is such an existential threat to the union and now all rules must be set aside and a state of total war is the path forward. They will justify anything, since they believe President Trump is getting away with breaking the law. Y’all need to go to an island somewhere and fight it out.
Yes, that is absolutely my position.
Are you really arguing that the blame for the offshoring of jobs to China is the fault of the POTUS? Look, I was opposed to the Patriot Act from day one, but does that mean Bush was a terrible liar/huckster/grifter? Good grief, people can disagree with me on policy and still be honorable men. I think if you sat in the Oval Office making huge complicated decisions, you might want a little grace from those of us out here looking on. Giving that grace doesn’t require compromise, just a little empathy. You gave a laundry list of all details in our societal breakdown from the past three decades, as if it’s the all the fault of “those elites in Washington”, and even insinuating we’d be better off if only President Trump had been sworn in back in 1980. That doesn’t seem remotely reasonable to me.
And yes, President Trump is on a completely different level of moral corruption than any man I’ve voted for. I realize we’ve had some real corkers in the past, but I wasn’t around then. Some of the President’s antics over the past fifty years sound like they come from the plot of a sit com.
- Who gets on nationally syndicated radio (a show that was later banned and exiled to XM for its vulgarity) and talks about their daughter with the show host. Let’s him openly objectify Ivanka, referring to her with crass terms, and replies that it’s “ok”. You really are saying that no different than Mitt “47%” Romney?! He called Stern something like 50 times!! He has said “if Ivanka weren’t my daughter, I’d probably be dating her.” Really?!?! And let’s not forget he described how Epstein “like beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side”?!?!?? Guys, this ain’t normal.
- Who takes money, from their nonprofit foundation, and uses it…to anonymously buy a portrait…of themself…and then gets on Twitter to brag about how much was paid!!! That is some next level narcissism. That almost sounds like the kind of person who would pretend to be their own PR agent, so they could call up reporters and brag about themselves. Can we just accept that this is on the borderlands of mental derangement?? If I had a relative pulling this stuff, I would call them nuts! I have a few that come close, and I do call them nuts!!
- Who talks about their penchant for extramarital affairs in their book?! That no married woman is safe around them?
- Who meets their third wife, while with a date, and still married to their second wife?
- Who has an affair with a porn star while their wife home with their three month old baby?
- Who describes their own book as their “second favorite”, right behind the Bible??
- Who is asked a question about Putin’s murder of journos and responds that the US kills a lot of people too!?!?! Good grief.
- And honestly, I don’t have the time or interest to discuss him publicly calling people middle school insults, mocking a disabled reporter, calling for cops to rough up detainees, offering to pay the legal fees of violent supporters who attack protesters at rally’s, making insinuations about the size of his private parts in a debate (I know he was responding to Rubio’s totally out of character attempt at a dirty comedy routine. Alas, Rubio is a mere mortal, and his attempt felt contrived, humiliated his family, and nearly wrecked his career. He had to apologize, cause…he ain’t Trump. He still has the capacity to feel shame. Too bad for him.)
His vulgarity, and pettiness, and wickedness, is so staggering that it makes a person appear petty or small to even highlight it! Anyway, enough of that. If you want to argue in the face of a mountain of evidence that President Trump is morally equal to all the men who came before him, shame on you. That’s a kind of moral blindness and obtuseness that shouldn’t even be dignified with a response. It’s the sort of thing that Pastor Tim should just put the smack down on like he does anarcho-Libertarians on the masking articles.
Somehow I think we need a definition of “fighting” that is distinguishable from an adolescent temper tantrum. And I’m afraid we will find that a goal of “owning the libs”, while it may accomplish some amazing things in the short term, isn’t a sustainable path to solving our problems as a nation.
There was a time we believed that leading well required character, intelligence, humility, and willingness to learn from mistakes. Turns out we were wrong. All you need to lead is a Twitter account and a penchant for catchy and demeaning nicknames, along with a willingness to make all the important people angry.
Look, you are welcome to argue that we are at such a low point as a nation that we cannot bother about the morals of our leaders, that we must not be too fastidious about these things, we have a war to fight, that the pay off is worth the compromise. Fair enough, maybe you believe that.
But you’re also saying that virtue is weakness and moral character make a man less desirable as a leader. Well, that is a worldview there. Not one I share.
That’s all.
Best,
Martin
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It would be more seemly to disagree without attacking the motives of those of us who are concerned about unquestioned support for the President. Many of us mean well, even if we are mistaken. Take that into account. I believe it would be better to listen to your brothers in Christ, without exhibiting a thin skinned sensitivity and quickness to take offense that we see on display far too often in these days. Perhaps trusting the motives of our President less (while supporting him where appropriate and respecting him) and maybe trust the motives of fellow Christians more, even if you differ from them.
Blessings,
Martin
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Martin,
These sorts of conversations and open disagreements are edifying. I wish Christians were more willing to engage in this sort of debate rather than pretending to be politically neutral. I would much rather argue with someone whose position is different to mine but can defend it scripturally than agree with someone who has no biblical warrant for his position. Thank you for your bold but winsome contributions.
I only have two points to add:
- Many Christians I know were fully aware of Donald Trump’s character flaws in the months leading up to November 2016, yet they still considered him the better use of a Christian vote. Right or wrong, I think everything you have just said shows how much Hilary Clinton is hated and seen as morally repugnant. FWIW, how many of your critiques of President Trump do not also apply in equal or greater measure to the Clinton family? That is not to defend the current president’s immoralities, but to show how bad the choices were. Bonhoeffer’s ‘Letters and Papers from Prison’ makes the startling claim early on that no Christian would escape Nazi Germany with clean hands, and it was folly to think anyone could. He comments that their own sin led them up to that point, now they must accept God’s judgment. The question was not whether anyone was morally innocent anymore, but given the situation how they would respond at that moment. I found that convicting and helpful.
If you go back through the archives here (or on Baylyblog?) you’ll see the agonising mental arguments that took place in the months leading to Nov 2016. Supporting the current president has been a difficult pill to swallow for many here, yet, in God’s kindness, despite the depravity of President Trump’s character, he seems to be accomplishing more of significant ethical value for the US than many other much ‘cleaner’ candidates in recent history.
- The comments here about ‘Christian leaders’ who vilify President Trump are not directed at you, but rather Gospel Coalition and ERLC (and other Southern Baptist/PCA) types who openly show their contempt of him with argumentation that is inconsistent, to say the very least. Think of, again, Russell Moore’s public denunciations against Judge Roy Moore on the basis of allegations of sexual impropriety against Moore, when Russ Moore almost that same week was openly supporting MLK despite known sexual misconduct. The point is not whether one should or should not support MLK or oppose Roy Moore, but rather that the standards for doing so were so openly inconsistent, and seemingly weighted in favour of the politics of the day in current society. That pattern among reformed and reformed-ish Christian leaders is infuriating.
Please know I’m not flattering you, but your arguments here are not along that line. You are not the target in comments about Christian leaders and elites.
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Thanks for the kind comments. And I haven’t felt like I was the target, just that the shotgun was choked pretty loose;)
I’m not personally part of the Reformed camp (though I’ve been tempted to call myself Reformed Arminian. For now I’ve settled on neoWesleyan.), and so I perhaps have a different perspective. I read with benefit Russell Moore, Douglas Wilson (a lot), Matthew Lee Anderson, Allan Jacobs, Albert Mohler, Samuel James (ERLC infamy), and of course Warhorn Media. I find things I agree with and things I disagree from each, but watching intelligent and godly men disagree and hone one another through those disagreements is bracing and has taught me so much.
My dad was raised a Quaker, and so you can imagine what strong medicine men like Pastor Tim Bayly and Pastor Douglas Wilson are for me. To be honest, I sometimes flinch a bit from what feels like overstatements, or things that I would have perhaps put in a more irenic tone before publishing. But that fact is part of why I keep reading. Frankly, it’s part of why I’m here in Sanityville. The last thing I need is one more voice to say everything just like I would. The fearlessness of these men has been a safeguard and aid to courage for me, since I came from some weak sauce in the doctrine and theology department.
I have little doubt there was much agonizing around these parts in 2016. I agree completely that our choices were awful in ‘16, and that many of the criticisms of President Trump are just as true of Clinton. There are a couple things to note.
First, when you say they are “even more true of the Clinton family”, I’m not sure I buy that. I agree the Clinton’s are corrupt, but the Clintons are bigger than life size among us and have assumed the proportions of myth. That’s the only explanation for how a man like Pastor Wilson can drop a comment about “the Clinton body count”, with no link or footnote of any kind, and not bat an eye. Am I saying I don’t think the Clintons capable of murder? Not at all. But the main source I was able to track down for the claim was Victor Thorn’s murder volume on the Clinton’s. I maintain strong skepticism when reading the claims of a rabid conspiracy theorist and holocaust denier, even when his latest research really sticks it to the bad guys. So perhaps some of the most over the top claims about the Clinton’s are untrue. I’m fine with being pointed to better sources, maybe this is all true. But it’s not something I accept just because someone said it. And too often in politics something gets repeated so often that it becomes a truism. But in politics, truisms aren’t always true.
I am not in any way arguing that the way we use our vote gives us some sort of moral superiority. I’m aware I carry the stain that comes when my tax dollars are used to pay for abortions. I don’t have a desire to sit on the sidelines, admiring my clean spats, while the real battle rages below in the arena. And I agree that the temptation of those who did not vote for President Trump in 2016 is to feel we are “of purer eyes than to look on evil”, and then to enjoy the fruits of others being able to hold their nose and vote Trump in ‘16. I can understand it even feeling a bit unfair.
But the temptation on the other side is to despise those whose convictions kept them from voting for Trump. “They are too interested in the approval of the elites…”. That’s a deeply uncharitable assessment and it’s divisive to boot. In the day of social media, I can find all manner of foolish things being said, in every which way. But to use the my “nut picking” to justify a dismissive tone to those who differ from me, and also to ascribe the worst of motivations and even to accuse them of not being wise enough to see what ought to be done is the wrong way to handle our differences.
And this brings me to your second clarification. I agree that there are leaders who really, really, really need to grow a spine. In my circles, it’s easy to find all manner of men in positions that I feel would be better served with a man more willing to speak out. But I try to remember that leaders are elevated for reasons. You complain (with reason) that Russell Moore is not loud enough regarding MLK, and I know he was nearly booted from his position over his criticism of President Trump. But let’s put some context in there. The ERLC is part of the SBC. The largest church in the SBC had a “Make America Great Again” Sunday, complete with a bespoke Choir number by that name. They have had Sean Hannity speak from their pulpit. Hopefully we can see that perhaps Russell Moore has reason to be concerned about a certain idolatrous patriotism rampant in certain circles. And if I have to choose between Pastor Robert Jeffress or Russell Moore…I would take Moore every time. And I would guess Jeffress’s praise of MLK (if he’s given any) was quite muted and measured.
Now without opening that whole can of worms so wide that this thread would never end, I’ll just say that on its face, the situation you described is not nearly so inconsistent as it might appear in the way you framed it. There are so many differences between celebrating MLK day, and voting for Moore, as to make the comparison almost unhelpful.
It seems a person can laud MLK’s contribution to the Civil Right’s cause without condoning in any way his sins. Many of those sins were utterly unknown during his lifetime. We are not deciding whether or not MLK is a suitable man to lead our movement. He is simply a flawed historical figure who accomplished some impressive things. I do not know the local opinion on Karl Barth, but I think it’s possible to celebrate his theology, without condoning his wickedness, found out only in the past few years. To put it shortly, there is a great difference between applauding a historical character and voting for current politician.
Finally, I have really appreciated what I have seen from Sanityville regarding masks and COVID. So much careful analysis. A healthy skepticism that doesn’t veer into conspiracy. A reasoned approach that I think untangles very complicated threads and helps so much in thinking through these issues. I could only wish that the same careful analysis and reasoning and thoughtful tone could be applied to things like the investigations into the President. That’s all.
Thanks everyone for a great conversation!
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This is just like masks. There are some who wear them to virtue signal. There are others who simply wear them to submit. There are some who reject Trump to virtue signal. Others because they cannot reconcile supporting a man so sinful.
The fact that the latter category exists does not mean the former category should be called out. It’s divisive to call it statist idolatry to wear a mask. It’s divisive to say that only a sexually immoral man would vote for Trump. It’s not divisive to warn that many leaders today are building their own kingdom and love the approval of the world. That’s part of why we see so much punching right and thoughtfully engaging left.
Also, perhaps I missed it, but I don’t remember seeing any reason in this conversation for you to think @Fr_Bill was talking about you, by the way. I sure didn’t think he was talking about you. Or me, for that matter. I did not vote for Trump. I agree with some of your assessments concerning him and would add some of my own.
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I didn’t take it to be talking about me. It was a generally broad comment, without being at all clear who it was directed toward. And I was simply intending to address that lack of clarity.
I’ve been a accused by different ones of punching Right and engaging Left, but that’s because I am still working through the bitterness of a sense of betrayal (long predating President Trump, probably reaching back to the Patriot Act, and also realizing many of the things I had learned on Talk Radio weren’t true.), but at the end of the day, I am a Conservative. All the way down.
And the Bayly clan has helped me a lot.
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It’s a bitter pill to swallow when you realize that the RINOs are the actual Republican party. Or that the right spreads lies, just like the left (something I’ve been shocked and saddened to see so much of during Covid). Or that “conservatives” aren’t actually conservative. Or… that the sinful heart of man is all the way down even deeper.
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That last point there…
Since I come from a tradition that teaches Perfectionism, an experience that delivers a man from Original Sin, the realization that our motives are so complex, and that we all need grace, all the time, came as a shock to me little system.
But seeing all that went down in politics over the past decade did help knock some kinks out of my theology. Still have a ways to go…
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