Did you just equate Jesus rebuking Satan with you quoting a verse to silence Jason?
2 Likes
The implication here seems to be that @jander should be responded to the same way the devil is responded to. I really hope Iām wrong in hearing you that way @ReformingWoman.
If anyone who disagrees on this topic (or any other) is under the snare of the devil from your perspective, the Holy Spirit through Paul tells you how to engage them:
And the Lordās servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. (2 Timothy 2:24ā26, ESV)
Thank you, @jander, for taking the time to interact here in such a thoughtful way. As excellent as what youāve written is, still more excellent is the spirit in which youāve written it.
And I will show you a still more excellent way. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. (1 Corinthians 12:31ā13:2, ESV)
Obviously we arenāt all going to agree here. We donāt have to. But we should all aim to love, which the Holy Spirit through Paul tells us requires patience (long-suffering) for a reason (1 Corinthians 13:4). Genuine love in controversial conversations like this usually isnāt going to be expressed through merely quoting a single verse without any explanation of how it applies to the conversation. Perhaps it would be better not to respond at all if you disagree. Though personally I think something like āThank you for sharing your thoughts, but I disagreeā would be better 
3 Likes
I didnāt quote a verse to silence @Jander, merely to counter his assertion that the Christian has no commandments to keep. I only referenced the desert temptation to point out that not every quotation from scripture has to be accompanied by a lengthy dissertation about how it applies. Forgive me where offense was taken, none was intended.
Heidi Ann Hammons
sDg
2 Likes
Dear Heidi,
Iām afraid you are not tracking with what I am saying. I am not arguing that the Christian has no commandments to keep. I am arguing that the Christian is not bound to the Mosaic law. These are very different things.
I am not advocating for antinomianism, or a ālet us sin that grace may aboundā theology. Iām arguing that the way we keep the commandments of Christ is not through observance of law. The Scriptures could not be more clear on the fact that the Christian has died to the law, and that law-keeping does not sanctify. This means that the Christian understanding of our relationship to righteousness, and what it looks like to live a righteous life, must involve much more than reciting the Mosaic law.
The new birth and life in the Spirit actually has a real transformative power at the level of our desires. And it is by walking in the Spirit that the Christian pleases God and bears the fruit of righteousness. Not by looking to the letter. The New Testament repeatedly pits life in the Spirit against life under the law. They are like oil and water.
Will write more on that later. Thanks for the new comments everyone.
3 Likes
To be clear, I think everybody in this conversation believes that the moral law existed prior to the giving of the Decalogue and still exists today, and is binding on all men everywhere at all times. Please correct me if Iām wrong.
If so, the problem with what youāre arguing Jason, is that to the extent the Decalogue represented the moral law it is still in effect. Nobody (except the Judaizers) thinks that the details of the Sabbath observance as laid out in the rest of the law still apply. In fact, nobody except the 7th Day Adventists thinks that the 4th commandment is perfectly representative of that moral law (or principle if you prefer), or we could not rightly celebrate on Sunday.
If you acknowledge an ongoing Principle of the Sabbath then the natural question is what does it look like for a Christian to ākeepā that principle? What you havenāt mentioned is that the 4th commandment itself describes the establishment not just as a blessing but as a āset apart day.ā (Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.)
I donāt think itās possible to escape the essence of the āset apartā nature of the day. Our relationship to the sign and the thing signified has indeed changed, which is why we now start our week with it as opposed to go through our week looking forward to it. Thereās something wonderful about that. But itās still the gift of a day set apart. Is your conscience bound concerning what you can and cannot do? I think not.
But where is the law of love when we live in such a way that requires others to forsake both the assembling of the saints and the sabbath principle, such as catching the game or going out to eat after church both do?
6 Likes
Thanks for following up, @jtbayly.
When you say moral law, do you use that as synonymous with Ten Commandments? I struggle with the term āmoral lawā because itās not a biblical term so Iām hesitant to agree that it existed prior to the giving of the Decalogue. Do categories of obedience/disobedience or righteousness/unrighteousness exist before the giving of the Decalogue? Yes, I agree to that. But moral law to me is fuzzy. What do you mean by that and on what biblical basis do you make that argument?
Regarding the day, Iām not convinced the day is a ācreation ordinanceā that stands with perpetuity. I lean more toward viewing the day as a type not entirely dissimilar from the way manna is a (physical!) type. The Sabbath day was how God prescribed (physical) rest for the nation of Israel (a type in and of itself) in the old covenant. Jesus and embracing Him by faith is how God prescribes (spiritual) rest for the church in the new covenant.
I think the root of the matter in how we view these things is where we lie on the continuum of continuity vs. discontinuity. You lean more toward the former while I (and @jander ?) lean toward the latter?
But, day aside, I think weāre all in agreement that gathering with Godās people is to be prioritized over catching the game or whatever way our flesh inclines us to forsake assembly. And, to be honest, I think focusing on the day actually misses the point for us who participate in the new covenant. Focusing on a day feels more like what a pedagogue would do to train a child prior to him growing up (Galatians 3:24-4:3). I donāt get the sense from Acts, for example, that they were devoted to each other each Sunday. They were devoted to each other day by day (Acts 2:46), including Sunday.
1 Like
Dear Joseph and Chris,
Helpful comments. Thank you and all the rest who have carried on this discussion.
I believe it was Edwards who said this is the most difficult theological issue: the continuity and discontinuity of the covenants: circumcision and baptism, Passover and the Lordās supper; the distinction between ceremonial, judicial, and moral law and what constitutes āgeneral equity;ā and of course here, the Sabbath.
On the Sabbath, my own pastoral recommendations are as follows:
-
Churches should not be ordered around a particular view of the Sabbath, but should exercise freedom of conscience on the matter. Both strict Sabbatarians of the Westminsterian kind and those who deny any continuity on this matter should feel and be welcome in a church.
-
That said, it should be clear to everyone who joins that, regardless of their view on the Sabbath, it is inappropriate for them to have their kids on travel teams or in debate clubs or a childrenās choir that interferes with the corporate worship of the church (normally on the Lordās Day) as well as the fellowship times and groups (assuming those are Sunday afternoon as in our fellowship). Work is a different matter not under their authority, but their home (assuming the father and mother are believers and in the church) is under their authority and they are expected to order it in such a way that the Body of Christ is the top priority on its assembly day each week.
-
Pastors, elders, and deacons should not be allowed to break this rule for Sunday morning corporate worship, and should be discouraged from breaking it by forsaking their home fellowship group Sunday afternoon or evening. It is the Sr. Pastor or his designee who should privately deal with this matter when a pastor or elder violates it; it should be any officer who privately deals with this matter when a deacon violates it; on the other hand, it should not be a matter of church discipline or rebuke, but rather moral suasion (gentle exhortation) when church members err.
-
Our first household is the church and not the home (uh-oh, Iām in trouble now), and thus church worship Sunday morning takes precedence over any ongoing family commitments that are under the authority of the familyās father/mother/leader. Fellowship/home fellowship groups Sunday afternoon or evening come close to as high a priority as Sunday morning corporate worship (or evening worship if the church doesnāt have any fellowship house-to-house commitments on Sundays). Church officers and their families should be expected to order their homes in such a way that these commitments are not violated chronically, although an exception now and then is reasonable.
-
One additional note: in our church, we dispensed with Sunday evening worship for the sake of home fellowship groups. We came to believe that fellowship from house-to-house was more needed than a second corporate worship service on Sundays, and now for about ten years, we have never had less than a 95% participation rate, and this with hundreds of children. But thatās another discussion.
With love,
4 Likes
Thanks so much, Tim. This is very helpful.
2 Likes
Youāve all been helpful. I just wanted to flesh out how we have decided to live together in our congregation whose officers all subscribe to the Westminster Standards. Thought it might be helpful to others. Love,
4 Likes
I like this term, general equity.
I think weāre all in agreement that there is a principle that God gives rest to his people; and that taking rest if part how we worship him. Moreover, the church is to be in regular, visible fellowship with one another.
I pray everyone realizes that the aim of my arguments here has not been to work toward an antinomian mentality that would seek to justify swim meets and ball games to the neglect of the communion of saints, all under the umbrella of āfreedom in Christ.ā Iāve seen far too much of this sort of looseness in the church, and it really grieves me. Itās like we use Christian liberty as a tool to liberate us from the Christian life. The very things that the Spirit would be building in us, such as a greater love for the fellowship of the brethren, we actually come to tear down.
I suspect thatās why some folks recoil at the line of thinking that @cgatihi are joined in. There is fear that if we donāt view the Sabbath as a matter of law, then what will follow is an inevitable descent into every-man-doing-what-is-right-in-his-own-eyes Christianity. Rather than having a high view of the church and its authority, we end up with a low one. Every family becomes their own autonomous church, and every father his own pope (donāt remember where I read that phrase, but probably from @tbbayly). I can very much sympathize with this concern, as itās exactly what Iāve experienced most of my Christian life. I would definitely agree that in most non-sabbatarian churches, there is a very low view of the authority of the local church and of earnest fellowship.
This was what put me on the path to really giving serious consideration to sabbatarianism in the first place. About two years ago, when my wife and I were on the verge of leaving our church (which had fallen into the heresies of the NAR), a dear brother of mine ( @Jay_Simon ) invited us to come spend the weekend with them and their church about 3 hours away ā a Reformed Baptist church. We spent the weekend at the pastorās house, and I enjoyed wonderful conversations into the wee hours of the night. I received much counsel and exhortation. We drank lots of coffee. It was wonderful.
But one of the things that was most striking about this church was they the people actually loved being together. The Lordās Day seemed to be treated with the same level of excitement each week as Christmas or Easter would at other churches. There was such a closeness to the saints, and a non-mechanical, earnest desire to be together which I had never observed before. For them, there werenāt two Christian holidays a year; there were fifty-two. And boy, it really got me thinking.
And I was very convicted to realize how I had thought so little of the Lordās Day in my life. Itās like this untapped gold mine of riches for the people of God. Here God has sovereignly preserved the first day of the week for the church as this tremendous gift, and we think so little of it. We donāt capitalize on it like we should. And I truly see that the church is the weaker for it.
So in practice, sabbatarianism has great appeal to me. It really does. But I just canāt get there theologically (as this conversation Iām sure has demonstrated). My problem is not that I want to belittle the Lordās Day; itās that I want to make much of it ā but only with a proper theological girding. As it stands, I would have a hard time joining a Reformed church that treats the Westminster Confessionās comments as a sort of deutero-canonical New Covenant law. At the same time, I donāt want the opposite experience of every man for himself.
But if weāre willing to say of the Westminster Confessionās sabbatarian view what Captain Barbossa said of the Pirateās Code ā that itās more of a guideline than actual rules ā then I suppose we are all simpatico. 
In any event, bro fist to my new internet ally, @cgatihi 
Thanks folks.
4 Likes
Good stuff everyone. Thank you for a great conversation brothers (and sister) 
And right back atcha @jander 
2 Likes
Iām still working through the Sabbath, but personally try to focus on using the LORDās day to glorify God. Sometimes we as a family have watch a tv show (cooking related). I have on deck to read: From Sabbath to Lordās Day and Getting the Garden Right. Iāve already read The Christian Sabbath by Martin, Call the Sabbath A Delight by Chantry, and The Believerās Sabbath by Reisinger. I am by no means an expert, but feel as a husband and father I have the responsibility to understand issues as these so as to lead my family rightly. Personally I would not want my sons to participate in Sports on Sunday and would instead work on teaching them to live a life which glorifies God irrespective of the day of the week. (1 Corinthians 10:31).
3 Likes
Does that book (or any of the others) any of those books make a case for the change from Saturday to Sunday?
I know in 2LBCF 1689 in Chapter 22 Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day in the 7th paragraph it states, " As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by Godās appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lordās Day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished. (Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10)"
Of the books I listed which I read I believe The Christian Sabbath by Martin and Call the Sabbath A Delight by Chantry both those men hold to 2LBCF1689 and do make a case for changing from Saturday to Sunday. The Believerās Sabbath by Reisinger, I donāt believe Reisinger makes a case for changing from Saturday to Sunday as if memory serves me he is a New Covenant guy.
The books I have yet to read (From Sabbath to Lordās Day and Getting the Garden Right) Getting the Garden Right is by Barcellos and Iām certain he will be making a case for changing while From Sabbath to Lordās Day I donāt know for certain, but the title in some ways seems to suggest, but I will wait to make certain after I have read it.
1 Like