Not in my right mind

[tbbayly (Tim Bayly)]

If it’s unhelpful to minimize man’s choice in the sentence we receive from the bar of the Judge of the Whole Earth, then it’s even more unhelpful to minimize the Judge of the Whole Earth’s sovereignty in that sentence. Which is, of course, precisely what Keller and his ilk do by much emphasis on man’s choice of Hell. Meditate on precisely why this unique presentation of man’s choice of Hell is popular today.

Of course, since I’m Westminster confessional, you know what I wrote was not to deny that God’s decree of Hell in any way does violence to man’s will. Love,

[Hobbit (Ross Clark)]

In the days when I was able to preach - it was a fairly small church - I found very quickly how much I enjoyed the “roar of the crowd”. Positive feedback was great, and people coming forward for prayer afterwards as a result of what I had said, even more so; but negative feedback, however delivered, is still preferable to a vapid “nice sermon, preacher”.

[Joel (Joel Norris)]

@tbbayly

If it’s unhelpful to minimize man’s choice in the sentence we receive from the bar of the Judge of the Whole Earth, then it’s even more unhelpful to minimize the Judge of the Whole Earth’s sovereignty in that sentence. Which is, of course, precisely what Keller and his ilk do by much emphasis on man’s choice of Hell.

It’s not clear to me how what I said is related to (Tim?) Keller. He is generally viewed negatively in my circles, I’ve not read his books, and the only material of his that I recall seeing is a video in a Sunday School class at a church I visited. I am familiar with the works of C.S. Lewis, and I take from him what is useful and leave what is not.

Here’s why I think it is generally not useful to emphasize the secret will of God in salvation and reprobation. My oldest child was my most frequent companion on visits to my mother, and at times, she saw my mother at her worst. My daughter is also at the age where character flaws, sinful tendencies, and parenting failures become undeniable. And when my daughter is disinclined to mortify her sinful nature, as is often the case, is the most important thing to tell her that if she is elect, then she will assuredly enter Heaven, and if not, then she will assuredly enter Hell? She already knows that, anyway. Instead, what made a lasting impression on my daughter was when I told her that her grandmother was not always like what my daughter saw but in the beginning was a teenage girl much like herself. What happened was a lifetime of many small choices, one by one, to be self-willed and not repent of sin, until they created the miserable person that my daughter met, and my daughter should not think that something like that could not also happen to her if she decided to hang onto her sins.

[Hobbit (Ross Clark)]

“Good and evil both increase at compound interest”.

[tbbayly (Tim Bayly)]

As I’d already said, Tim Keller promotes the same man-centered view of Hell spoken of above and popularized by Lewis. As I said, we wrote much on it. I even provided a link to our work. But fuggedaboutit.

On the helpfulness of the doctrine of God’s decrees, setting aside what might be true at this or that time with this or that person (which I would be a fool to question in the particular at a distance), Scripture is filled to the brim with the doctrine, so it must be endlessly profitable. And from thirty-some years in pastoral ministry, I testify that it’s often those doctrines we want to hide in this or that case for this or that reason that when, by extraordinary faith, we teach and testify to that produce the greatest fruit.

Now then, about the doctrine of God’s decrees, here is Luther’s response to Erasmus who did not so much want to argue against the doctrine as to question it’s use in this world:

Where, alas! Erasmus, are your fear and reverence of God, when you roundly declare that this branch of truth, which He has revealed from heaven, is at best, useless? What! Shall the Glorious Creator be taught by you, His creature, what is fit to be preached? Is the adorable God so very defective in knowledge, as not to know, till you instruct Him, what would be useful and what pernicious? Could He not know the consequence of His revealing this doctrine, till those consequences were pointed out by you?

Who art thou, O Erasmus, that thou shouldst reply against God! Paul, discoursing of God, says, “Whom He will He hardeneth.” And again, “God willing to show His wrath . . .” and the Apostle did not write this to have it stifled among a few persons, and buried in a corner, but wrote it to the Christians at Rome; which was, in effect, bringing this doctrine upon the stage of the whole world, stamping a universal imprimatur upon it, and publishing it to believers at large throughout the world. What can sound harsher to carnal men than those words of Christ, ‘I know whom I have chosen’?

Now these and similar assertions of Christ and His Apostles, are the very positions which you, O Erasmus, brand as useless and hurtful!”

[dabusara (Dave Abu-Sara)]

I’ve been reading Luther’s Bondage Of The Will and its been surprisingly (to me) understandable and even entertaining. I expected it to be slow slog through a complex logical and historical argument. That’s in there, but I’ve found the sections like the one you quoted to be quite helpful. God doesn’t need us to decide which truths to keep and which to discard.

[Joel (Joel Norris)]

@jlacadd

She accused him of the most heinous sins to the mission board, refusing to accept any other interpretation of the “facts” she brought to bear, despite their being completely ridiculous. The problem being that we all had to give her case a chance, as you do hear of terrible things done and the mighty have fallen. But after sufficient review, the board and church cleared him of all accusations, to which she always had some answer to the effect that his “charismatic personality” had “gotten to them” somehow.

Sounds very familiar. Praying for you, brother.

@jlacadd

We took the position for many years that we would maintain a civil relationship with her, but not a deep emotional connection… Nonetheless, I do now speak with her once a month or so by Skype and try to navigate the relationship as best I can. Now that my son is grown I feel less the need to protect him, and more the need to figure out what it looks like to honor my mother given this circumstance.

This is a good attitude. In earlier years I kept more distance because I was less able to deal with my mother’s emotional manipulation and abuse. But later my approach was not to enable her in her dysfunction and sin yet maintain communication and keep the door open for repentance and reconciliation.

@jlacadd

Anyway, all this to say, this has been the hardest thing to hit my family (nuclear and extended) in my life, and figuring out what to do is sometimes extremely difficult.

Yes, it really pushed me to figure out what real love is.

[nathanalberson (Nathan)]

I was put on twilight for a minor procedure and it was one of the strangest experiences of my life. It’s like I was in a movie and we cut to the next scene, there was no sense of time passing like when you’re asleep. Impossible to describe if you haven’t experienced it. One moment you’re being put to sleep. The next moment the doctor is explaining what just happened. The next moment you’re home. It’s really weird.