Cultural Mandate - Help

I am of the mind that contraceptives use is broadly sinful (which is to say: I can’t think of a way in which contraceptive use is acceptable in light of revelation but I am not totally opposed to there being some exception out there), but John Piper gave a sermon on the subject several years ago (Single in Christ) in which he argues that:

So when we come now to the New Testament, Jesus makes clear that his people — the true people of God — will be produced not by physical procreation but by spiritual regeneration." And further that, "Children are born into God’s family and receive their inheritance not by marriage and procreation but by faith and regeneration. Which means that single people in Christ have zero disadvantage in bearing children for God, and may in some ways have a great advantage.

Piper has elsewhere spoken emphatically about the purpose of childbearing in marriage in the past (Marriage is Meant for Making Children), so I do not cast his point here in the same light as the (valid) one @sbaker brought up earlier concerning the negative influence on this subject inflicted by dispensationalist theology, but I am sure that others may find Piper guilty of playing into this slide, nonetheless.

I listened to the sermon I quoted earlier several years ago when I first started to come around on the wrongness of birth control during, during premarital counseling.

I’ve never known anyone who holds this. As for the question, it would help clarify things to instead ask “Can two be fruitful and multiplying in a biblical sense without holding the view that use of contraceptives is sinful in all circumstances?”

The answer to that question would be that, prior to about 1940, everyone who had ever lived was in this category, so yes, it is possible. Even today I’m guessing most babies born have a father and mother who don’t think contraception is sinful in all circumstances.

Maybe what you meant to ask is whether it is possible to be fruitful and multiply spiritually while refusing to be fruitful and multiply children? If that is your question, I still think it’s a non-question since who would argue against it? So what I think you really are asking is whether being fruitful and multiplying spiritually is seen by God as compensation for refusing to obey His command to fill the earth with children and to propagate for Him a Godly seed?

My answer is “no.” As I said in the OP, this is neither to obey nor to sacrifice. We can’t negotiate obedience-trades with God. For this reason, I won’t marry couples who are planning to not be fruitful and multiply. It would be a marriage whose foundation was rebellion against God at a level every bit as fundamental as a marriage between sodomites. Love,

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My question was an inquiry into what level of wisdom and discretion, if any, you think is extended to the believer in fulfilling this command.

Let me provide a specific example. Before I married, I told my wife-to-be that I wanted to have at least four children so that I would feel like I had multiplied. A well-meaning pastor recommended that we delay children so we could get to know each other better, but I disregarded that advice, and our first child was born on our first wedding anniversary. The second followed nineteen months later. My wife felt overwhelmed caring for an infant and young toddler, so she asked if we could put more space between our second and third child. I acceded, and our third was born two and a half years later. Our fourth arrived three years later, longer than intended due to a miscarriage in between, and our fifth arrived not quite three years after that. At this point my wife felt that her body was too worn out to go through another pregnancy (not a medical diagnosis) and felt like she couldn’t manage to care for more children, so she asked if we could stop at five. I acceded, also mindful of my own age (I will be eligible for Medicare the month after our youngest turns eighteen). I have heard that our example has encouraged some younger couples in our church to desire a larger family than they originally planned, but it’s also true that we spaced births and stopped at five. In your view was I wrong to do so?

The specific judgement you’re asking for requires someone to know you well and requires dialogue. I don’t see how even a well-explained yes or no could be right for your situation, not in such specifics.

Such big decisions like avoiding too many children should be made with advice from others, hopefully others who really know us. For me, I’ve committed to not changing jobs without seeking advice from my father and the men in church who know me best. That’s a place in life where I don’t trust myself.

Delaying children to later in marriage is stupid advice. At best, it’s evidence of weak faith. Are you happy you didn’t heed it? It sounds like you have done well. Faithful couples will spend most of their marriage as active parents, as you’ve noted for yourself. Spending a few years to “get to know each other better” leads to setting bad habits and is ill preparation for children and the rest of marriage. It is most helpful to jump in, commit. Trust God and trust and encourage each other. Siblings, roommates, spouses, children, bring out the worst in us. And that’s good, to get it out and grow and heal. If we don’t hide and bury it. If we have the support that God intended for us. Then it brings out the best in us. When God said is is not good for man to be alone, I extend that to mean it is also not good for man and wife to be alone.

The above communities (within a family and also without) are very hard to do in a church without lots of others doing the same thing, particularly without older men and women who are ahead of you in the process. When such “elders” speak honestly of the overwhelming work of raising children and demonstrate the good of this particularly fruitful work, younger families may gain faith.

Sounds like you’re modeling a life which is abnormal where you live. And you’ve encouraged others to consider the more faithful path. That is great.

But, please don’t think you’ve gone even nearly far enough. Yes, maybe for you. Maybe for your context. Please consider that those younger couples can go further, be more faithful, more strong. In many areas of life, not just this one.

Consider how abnormal we are in light of human history and the Bible. That was already mentioned above. In this day and age, family size is just one thing among many, where we can reform our ways and work toward the younger generations continuing that reformation beyond our own capabilities.

I know some ordained men here have supported and suggested contraceptives, in specific cases. I imagine it’s rare and temporary. I also know a smaller set that have encouraged a divorce. I see these issues as quite similar. I know there’s no laid-out and repeated prohibition against contraceptives in the Bible, like there is for divorce. But there are also no laid-out exceptions to the command for fruitfulness, like there are for the prohibition against divorce. Many women and men in the Bible went so far as to sin in order that they might have more children. I can’t think of anyone who faithfully avoided more children.

I don’t expect anyone here to qualify their statements about divorce with exceptions: marriage is for life. The exceptions are rare and loaded with context, and it’s not helpful for a couple to keep them in mind while making their marriage. There’s no out, go forward. With family size, it may be even harder to lay out well-explained exceptions. Fruitfulness is a command given without exception to all men, and the blessing of children is (I think) unqualified.

If a couple has to consider contraceptives, then deal with it carefully (with wisdom and discretion, as you’ve noted). But seek the advice of others. Have a life of being known by others, so you can seek advice from people who know you.

The general explanations you’ve given sound like the beginning of a reasonable justification. Feeling overwhelmed, physical weakness. But they also sound like common things which women have been experiencing forever. The difference is in the specifics. Even if you were to write an deeper explanation here, we’re just not going to really know you and your family like your own church should.

My parents stopped after their second. Mom was overwhelmed, Dad was a traveling salesman (sorta). I will always consider it a sad tragedy. But as I’ve gotten to know them more, understand their situation, realize how young they were in their faith, I’ve learned to let it go. They take joy in my sister’s many children. And this is simply one place in life where I won’t seek advice from my father.

My unordained, bachelor answer to your question is of course you could have done better. Should have done better. It may have been partly your fault (isn’t everything?), it may have been partly the fault of the people who raised you or the pastors and others around you early in your marriage. Jesus only has sinners to choose from when he calls out, “good and faithful servants.” So the obvious answer is always that we could have done better. And yet, thank God my parents had two. Thank God, you married! And have five!!

Joel, you married later in life. I’m older than that. I’ll (Lord willing) marry some day. Despite the joy and gratitude on that day, I’ll always say I should have married earlier. And others should marry earlier. It’s better. That’s a general statement. Of course there are exceptions. Lord willing, I’ll make good in the end, but I don’t want that to ever weaken the rule of marrying relatively young in life. Thirty ain’t young. People shouldn’t wait so long to get married. You probably agree. I say the same thing for having lots of children. Which I think you also agree with.

I apologize for the many words. In this online forum, I can’t say you did right or wrong. But I do beg you not to let exceptions get in the way of the rule.

I hope you can stand against the advice for couples to delay kids. Honeymoons are nice, but not two-year sorta-honeymoons. Couples should begin practicing hospitality before they have a nice house. No one’s ever actually prepared for marriage, and they’ll also never actually be prepared for kids. That’s no excuse, even though there are people who ought not to yet get married.

Here’s a simpler example of what I’m trying to get at. Families should practice in-home hospitality. The house should be clean and welcoming, and the children should behave. Families should practice hospitality, even when the home isn’t clean enough, even when the kids are acting up like crazy. Sometimes, if the house is way out of order, yeah, don’t invite people over, maybe even cancel plans. It’s fine to cancel plans, sometimes. But I don’t want to define this exception. Have people over. We should admit that the house and children ought to be in order. And we should have people over regardless, knowing it’s never perfect and often not as in order as we’d like. Because we’re simply supposed to have people over. 1. I can think of lots of people who should have people over more often. 2. I can think of some people who could do better at having a well-ordered home. Hospitality isn’t one of my weaknesses, and I’m often in both of the above categories. But I can’t think of anyone whom I would suggest to have people over less often, because their house isn’t clean enough.

I’ve classified my Christian coworkers into two groups in my mind. Those who don’t talk about inviting me over to dinner but rather just ask me what night I can come over. And then those who say they will have me over some time, and say it again, and again. I eat lunch with both types and have helpful Bible studies and prayer time with both types. But with the second group, the promises for invitations become accompanied with excuses like the house isn’t clean enough, or the kids are in a bad way recently. I’ve come to learn these don’t have anyone over for dinner, hardly ever. The problem isn’t a dirty house.

Keep encouraging those younger couples to have more than they thought they would want.

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@Joel

I understand the general principle of child-bearing to be subject to other factors. Having children is not an end in itself. The idea is to raise a family. If a woman is at risk of harm or death through pregnancy, then it puts the family as a whole at risk (not to mention the agony of losing your beloved). In that situation I believe not having children is the right answer.

But how far does that go? If a woman honestly feels that another child would be beyond her ability to deal with, either for the moment or forever, I believe putting her welfare first is the right thing to do, even without a medical diagnosis. Quite apart from being the loving thing to do, it would compromise the health of your existing family.

That last phrase, however is the challenge. What else constitutes a compromise to the health of your existing family? Financial restrictions? Housing? We can quickly find many reasons to stop having children, and no end of people to agree with us.

This is where we need the support and advice of wise counsellors to show us where we are allowing shadows to stop us, and to help us recognise real show-stoppers. But in the end, we are responsible before the Lord for our decisions, right or wrong. Thank the Lord for his grace.

FWIW, from what you explained about your situation, I’d have made the same choices.

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Up until antibiotics, this was universally the case.

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@jtbayly Greater risk, yes. But there are situations where the odds are extremely high due to various factors.

Dear Alistair, I don’t understand this statement. If having children is not an end in itself, the vast majority of women are twisted in their thinking, as are many men. Have you had a son or daughter? If so, when he or she was born, did you say to yourself, “this is only a preliminary step to having a family/raising a godly seed/giving glory to God/etc.?” Truthfully speaking, I can’t think of anything in life that is more endish than marital love and the wife one loves presenting to her lover a son or daughter who is the fruit of their love. Anything other than death, that is. (Death is like really and totally sort of endish, if you receive my meaning?) But maybe I’m misunderstanding you?

I do agree with the rest of your first paragraph and have not cavilled at a couple’s use of contraception/sterilization in a couple such cases. Second paragraph is more debatable because in marriage what we think we’re capable of or believe will make us sick in the head or sick in the soul or sick in the body often is in need of readjustment by our spouse. We are not our own keepers in such matters, really. As I repeat endlessly in pastoral care, others actually do quite often know us better than we know ourselves.

Love the quality of this discussion, brothers. Very helpful. Thank you. Love,

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@tbbayly Ouch. This is going into my shepherding lexicon and I will use it in the future. I have (with much pain) discovered myself doing this more than once in various areas. When I have tried to do this, it has derailed my understanding of God’s grace, as “obedience-trades” is a manifestation of works-righteousness. For even where I am obedient at the end I am an unprofitable servant dependent on mercy

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@tbbayly
You asked,
‘Have you had a son or daughter? If so, when he or she was born, did you say to yourself, “this is only a preliminary step to having a family/raising a godly seed/giving glory to God/etc.?”’

Yes. I have had a son and a daughter. And, yes, at the same time I being overjoyed, I was aware that they were part of the larger picture of raising a family.

I honestly don’t understand your problem with the statement.

As for the second paragraph, yes, I assumed such a situation would include weighing up of the issues, both as a couple and with advisers, hence the 4th paragraph. It’s a good point to keep in mind.

The reason I asked whether use of contraceptives was sinful in all circumstances, or almost all circumstances, is because if so, there is no need for further discussion – it simply must not be done. But if it depends on the circumstances (and more than just the life of the mother), then the nature of such circumstances needs to be discussed.

For my family, I allowed for spacing of births to ease the burden on my wife. We also stopped at five because, aside from age, we felt we couldn’t effectively parent more than that in terms of the individual attention each child needed – teenagers are tougher than toddlers.

Although we have many labor-saving technologies in the 21st century, it is also the case that parents today are weighted down by many burdens not faced by prior generations – heavier government regulation, an economic environment hostile to families, loss of community, and a corrupted culture. Anyone who has children at all, let alone more than two or three or four, is swimming against a strong tide. So I am happy when any Christian family decides to have another child.

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I’m also very confused by the statement. It reminds me of the statement (please don’t take offense) “heterosexuality is not godliness.”

Insofar as no end is ultimate, except the glory of God, then sure, I’ll grant you the point. But when God says be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, having children as Christians is accomplishing one of the commands in and of itself. Is that enough? Of course not. No more than being heterosexual is “enough.” But the command is literally to have children. (And this is where the comparison differs, since being your own sex really is a precondition to fulfilling the commands, not an end in itself.) But if having children is one of the primary purposes of marriage, how can it not be a primary end?

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@jtbayly

My point was that bearing children is not an end that requires the subordination of all other factors.

The command is to be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Implicit is the need to raise children to subdue the earth, and to rule it as representatives of God. If having children were the end goal, then let’s not be concerned about how they are raised or the state of the family they are raised in. Let’s praise unwed single mothers with ten children to 10 different men, or husbands with 20 neglected children with sick and broken wives. (I’m aware that women have been able to bear 20 n
children without problem, but some cannot).

Encourage lots of children. Yes! I personally wanted many more, but circumstances didn’t allow it (late marriage, difficulties conceiving). But having children is not the end and decisions around child bearing need to take other things into account.

Granted, that is not the issue our culture struggles with today.

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Not sure I can either, but even after the ongoing discussion and agreeing with most every clarification you have made, the original statement still seems slightly off to me. Out of love comes fruitfulness because out of the love of the Godhead came all creation. In that context, I can’t think of any more fundamental principle God has written into the DNA of His creation than the command to glorify Him by being fruitful ourselves. But very helpful discussion. Thanks for it. Love,

Dear brothers,
Do we insist that all God’s commands, when taught, be qualified with exceptions? Maybe so, but I’m inclined to think that a good part of the clamor for qualification of God’s blessing and command to be fruitful and multiply stems from uneasy consciences on the part of Christian men, who think that it is a hard thing that each “unprotected” act in bed puts his wife in danger of death through complications of childbearing. Add to this the physical pleasure the act brings for the man, and you get men of tender conscience thinking it’s selfish of them to “put her through that again” and wondering if God really expects him to “put her through that again.” How many more times must he “put her through that again” till God will be satisfied?

But who is it who calls a woman to lay down her life to bear and raise children? Is it her husband alone, or is it God? It’s God, and God is kind.

I’m not saying there can be no qualifications or exceptions ever. But I want us Christian men to have the faith to trust God’s goodness and to unashamedly, with clear conscience, and with joy call our wives to lay down their lives in bearing and raising many children for the Lord. It is their sanctification, and it’s a beautiful thing.

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And right there in this special sanctification we see how women are saved through childbirth. Good word, brother.

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So I’ve had an interesting 24 hours on this subject.

One of my best friends - I was the best man in his wedding a couple of years ago - and I have been talking about the creation mandate for a couple of months now. He and I don’t live in the same city any longer, so it was mostly over text, although we’d had sidelong conversations on the subject in person. The point being that I misunderstood his tone on the issue for some time now.

I hadn’t heard from my friend in a while but had periodically sent him stuff on the subject for the past several weeks, including the sermon text linked to above on the sin of Onanism. My point was that my wife and I had come to the conclusion that contraception was wrong before we got married and, just about 5 years into our marriage, are preparing for our third child, praise the Lord. I have spent the past long while encouraging him to broach this subject with his wife and for the both of them to recognize their sin in this issue and to repent of it.

I should have known things were worse than I thought when, a week or so after I started talking to him about this, his wife posted a lengthy Instagram post about how they’d followed Dave Ramsey and bought their new car with cash. That’s all well and good and admirable, but she tagged the post with “DINK Life,” which, if you’re unfamiliar, DINK is an acronym meaning “Dual Income, No Kids.” I don’t have Instagram or any social media, so my wife brought it to my attention. We both agreed that she probably had posted this in response to my conversation with my friend, but because I hadn’t talked with his wife and his wife had tagged neither me nor my wife in the post, we let the issue be. My wife and my friend’s wife were “close acquaintances” before we moved, but they weren’t friends.

Over the course of the next couple of weeks, I kept sharing with him the bible passages in support of my argument as well as things I was reading and listening to that did the same. His counters were included:

  • “But where is a bible verse that explicitly says that birth control is a sin?”
  • “Where does it say I should have as many children as possible?”
  • “How many children do I have to have with my wife before we are no longer in sin on the subject?”
  • “I’m just not seeing how you can say that birth control is a sin. You are adding to the scriptures on this subject.”
  • “What about if my wife and I want to enjoy each other’s company before having children, or want to focus on ministry and missions, or want to have X amount of money saved up in order to make sure we can afford a child?”

There were more, but these were the core arguments. And then, over the past couple of weeks… nothing. I sent him a few things - most recently, as a joke, the quote from Kanye West in his interview with James Corden saying that he wanted 7 kids and that kids are a blessing; with the comment that “even new Christian Kanye West agrees with my argument.”

He responded a couple of hours later saying that he’d muted the conversation (it is a group text between me, him, and a mutual friend who after I started making the argument came to agree with me) because he got tired of hearing about it.

Over the years, one of the things we would do for fun is either deliberately pick opposite sides of an issue and and debate until one side conceded or find something we genuinely disagreed about and do the same. But it was always in good fun. While I thought he was wrong on contraception, I more or less thought we were engaging in our normal banter/discourse.

He appended that earlier text with an emoji to come off as playful, but after he didn’t respond to my follow-up texts calling him out on it, I texted him privately and asked if we were good. He unloaded on me about how he was extremely frustrated by the conversation and he didn’t know how we could be friends if I believed he was in sin with his wife by practicing contraception.

I followed up by apologizing because I didn’t know he was so upset and that I would have taken the conversation more seriously if I had known he had felt this way about it - and that I wasn’t trying to antagonize him. I won’t detail the conversation too thoroughly beyond this, but it has become clear that the issues are as follows:

  1. He knows that the argument I’ve made, that the use of contraception is sinful, is probably right.
  2. He does not want me to be right. This is because of a few reasons:
  • He is working his first full time job worth a darn ever and I estimate he makes about $45k per year.
  • His wife is a PhD psychologist working for a local school district.
  • He and his wife come from broken homes.
  • He was an only child and his dad is a sad sack who lives in a trailer in the middle of nowhere as an IT consultant. His dad’s a nice guy and handy with stuff like cars, but a total pushover who now lives with his girlfriend and her daughter. His mom is some kind of engineer, and while there’s a chance she’s a Christian, she’s also a deceptively mousy woman who uses her meekness as a form of manipulation to undermine the masculinity of her ex-husband and probably also my friend.
  • His wife comes from a “relatively healthy” broken home. She does not like her mother for reasons I don’t know. Her father is extremely wealthy and spoiled her and her sisters. He gave my friend and his wife something like $50k on top of paying for their wedding out of pocket. Point being that I expect that she’s used to being “taken care of” monetarily, which goes back to my first and second bullet point here: he has a bad job with a useless degree and she just finished her PhD
  1. My friend probably does not wear the pants in his marriage and may not want to. One thing that’s telling is that I’ve encouraged him to read on this subject for himself or talk to elders at his church (my old church). To the best of my knowledge he’s done neither.
  2. Although he tried to suggest that I’m the first person to ever raise this issue (i talked him down from that), he does bring up an interesting point about our friendship: is the issue of contraception as serious an issue as adultery, sodomy, divorce, effeminacy, and fornication? And if so, is it worth breaking fellowship with each other over? And further, if this is the case, why aren’t we who recognize the sinfulness of Onanism calling it out in our churches and disciplining/excommunicating/separating from folks who are okay with it?

I ask these last questions because I want to know if I can salvage my friendship with my friend, because the seriousness of the sin of Onanism is something that pulls at my heart as urgently as abortion, and because I don’t see anyone’s lead to follow as to how to approach this sin with the seriousness my friend (probably rightly) says I ought to take it if I believe it, so I wonder what I am missing.

I’m sorry for the long post, but this weighed heavily on my heart all day yesterday in the fallout of of my conversation with my friend

I apologize for any typos - let me know, also, if something needs clarification and I will edit accordingly. I wrote this haltingly over the course of about 4 hours, so I grant that some things may not flow as sensibly as it ought.

Thank you for your time and attention.

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Maybe you’re picking at their sterile sex thinking repentance of it could cause him to become the head of his home? If the Order of Creation is denied, that’s the place to focus. How is the submissive one in a marriage capable of righting the ship on a subordinate issue without addressing the central one? Something about fiddling with the deck chairs on the Titanic, although making fruitful love and fulfilling the command to be fruitful is not on a level with the placement of deck chairs, I’ll grant you.

Some might say this discussion is a good way to get at the larger issue, and they may be right. But when the Western Church almost universally denies Adam’s federal headship and God’s order of creation, it seems oddly imbalanced to make abortion or Onanism or homeschooling or racism our one string to harp on. Do I make sense, dear brother?

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I don’t think I am conveying anything new to you here, so this may or may not be helpful. But here are some thoughts I’d bring up in reply to your friend’s objections.

  • “But where is a bible verse that explicitly says that birth control is a sin?”

I’d discuss with him that this isn’t how the Bible works. It is not a tedious book of “thou shalt nots,” exhaustively addressing every conceivable situation of human life. Rather, the Bible conveys God’s standard for what is right and good and true. And the Bible teaches that children are a blessing to be embraced, not a curse to be avoided. The Bible teaches that fruitfulness of the womb is part of God’s good design for marriage. Your friend’s first sin has to do with a presupposition that regards as evil that which God calls good. If he wants a chapter and verse to discuss, take him to Isaiah 5:20.

  • “Where does it say I should have as many children as possible?”

There is a profound difference between acknowledging God as the sovereign of the womb versus “having as many children as possible.” To embrace God’s good design for the fruitfulness of the marriage bed is not to be confused with saying you should become some fertility nut. People can deny God’s sovereignty over the womb in their “trying” to have children just as much as they can in their willful determination to avoid children. Clarify to your friend (as I’m sure you have) that you aren’t telling him to go “try to have” children. You’re charging him with his sin of avoiding pregnancy as though children are a thing to be avoided, rather than welcomed.

  • “How many children do I have to have with my wife before we are no longer in sin on the subject?”

I would press him to see what this question exposes about the condition of his heart toward children. Take note of how our sinful thinking causes us to retreat to law. “Just give me a number. I’ll go on hating children in my heart, but I’ll grit my teeth and obey if I have to.” Press him with the fact that his sinfulness in this area is not tied to how many children he has. It’s the hatred and resentment that he bears toward God’s good design.

  • “I’m just not seeing how you can say that birth control is a sin. You are adding to the scriptures on this subject.”

If he and his wife use the pill (which I assume they do), then it becomes a very simple discussion. Hit him with simple life science. The pill is an abortifacient, and God says thou shalt not kill. If we’re talking about forms of “conception” control (which the pill is not), then I would appeal to the other points above.

  • “What about if my wife and I want to enjoy each other’s company before having children, or want to focus on ministry and missions, or want to have X amount of money saved up in order to make sure we can afford a child?”

Let’s take these separately.

*“What about if my wife and I want to enjoy each other’s company before having children?”

This is an amazing lie we’ve believed today – that somehow enjoying our spouse and having children are mutually exclusive. Having children is designed to be a natural overflow of a husband and wife enjoying one another’s company! It is a blessed thing to have a house full of children. Having children in the house should serve only to enhance our enjoyment of our marriage. And how much deeper does our love and enjoyment of our spouse grow as we endure the sleepless nights and heartache of parenting together. There is glorious joy to be found here.

Your friend hasn’t begun to understand what it is to enjoy his wife, so long as he goes on hating children. What he really wants is a playmate to pursue the pleasures of the world with. He doesn’t want a wife.

  • “or want to focus on ministry and missions,”

Brother, puh-lease. It’s amazing how often this hypothetical comes up, and the only people who ever bring it up are people who couldn’t care less about “ministry and missions.” Your friend and his wife don’t care about ministry and missions. They care about their “DINKlife.”

  • "or want to have X amount of money saved up in order to make sure we can afford a child?”

A statement like, “we can’t afford children” carries with them some very telling presuppositions. What we mean when we say this is that we aren’t able to afford children while also maintaining a particular lifestyle. If affording a child means still having room to buy new cars, new toys, and go on lavish vacations, then no, you can’t afford a child. “We can’t afford children,” is nothing more than a front for the love of vanity and finery.

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One thing we’ve been thinking about recently is “how old is too old”? I.e. assuming you have 6 or 7 kids and then you hit, say, age 45 – I’d think that most people would say “I’m getting too old for this” even though the wife may not hit menopause until 55. We’re much younger than that but Lord willing we’ll face it one day. I also assume most people just switch to other forms of “interaction”. I’ve heard of women having kids in their 60s :thinking:

It’s all new to me, starting to think it through. Assuming your wife and you wanted to keep going and were good at raising them, you might go on ahead until menopause, but I imagine for most people, they’d stop ~40, 45 the latest.