‘Round and round the cobbler’s bench, the monkey chased the weasel.’
Doug’s argument’s isn’t being misrepresented here @JosephSpurgeon.
‘Not only would I rather die, but if I were a member of a church that for some reason required this of me, I would rather be excommunicated than comply with it. I would seek permission to leave peaceably, and if that were denied, I would be excommunicated.’
‘For some reason required this of me’? That’s pretty vague. Any reason at all? Here at the church I serve, the congregation, at the request of the elders, complied with Parliament’s mandate’s that was in force for much of the last year, that all indoor events had to be masked (explicitly including places of worship). Doug says that a congregant who disagreed with the government mandate should either refuse to comply with the elders’ request or leave the church over it. Full stop. I’m opposed to the government mandating masks in worship as well, and I voiced that opinion repeatedly to the elders and to the congregation, yet we still thought it wise in light of the situation to submit for the duration of the restrictions (which have now been lifted). Discussion of sphere sovereignty/authority aside, our decision as elders was a theological decision, that there were various scriptural reasons it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the flock to go against Parliament’s dictates in this case (regardless of my own views on the legitimacy of their authority to issue these mandates).
@adionne is right. It seems Doug has moved. He’s moved from ‘defy tyrants’ to ‘defy your elders.’ And for the life of me, I cannot see how this comports with Hebrews 13.17-18. Is there no possible legitimate reason that a church’s eldership might temporarily urge submission in this matter?
And if there might be a temporary and legitimate reason that it might not be cowardice or compromise for a church’s leaders to urge compliance, Doug’s rhetoric is pastoral malpractice…the sort that leads to the divisive issues many here have already raised.
The Reformers were not this incompetent even over matters as significant as the Solas and restoring biblical worship. Luther waited several years after he said it was a necessity to give the congregation services in the vernacular before implementing a German mass in his own congregation. It was the radical reformers who wanted change right now. Years of Latin services@JosephSpurgeon, years. But a couple months of wearing masks from otherwise faithful shepherds must require rebellion or excommunication.
Thank you Aaron for your response but we are not in the time of the reformation attempting to come out of Latin mass and years of papist abuses. It would be one thing if we had all been wearing masks for years and trying to reform away from it. In my opinion, trying to compare what is happening now to then doesn’t work. We are under a secular humanist tyranny that is growing before our eyes and everyone wants to nitpick those that believe we ought to stop it. And I don’t meant to be rude but the Church in Britain has gone along for years with that nanny state and it doesn’t surprise me that the churches have gone along with implementing mask mandates. I personally don’t want to see America become Britain.
Here is the thing I can’t shake and its that I feel like I am being gaslighted by our media and civil government and that my compliance with mask mandates(and as a pastor my requiring them) is selling out my family and my congregation to further erosion of their liberty (which didn’t come cheap) in which the end result is far worse than masks. And so yes masks are not the same as Roman Catholic rule but I know this won’t get traction here but I believe that a secular humanist tyranny will prove to be far worse than a Roman Catholic one.
Therefore while I don’t want to divide over masks and hate the division over it, I don’t know how I would be able entrust my family to a church that required masks to the point of excommunication or goes along with everything as if nothing is really happening. I think the reason Doug is willing to make space for Evangel is that he believes we see what is happening and will fight it at some point even if we disagree on tactics. But there are churches (PCA and SBC) that implemented every CDC order without a thought to its ramifications and when people have had some scruples with it, they have not been willing to hear them out or to accommodate them.
Dear brother you’ve just changed the subject. I was addressing your claim that some here are misrepresenting DW. You’ve just changed the subject to justifying why his tactic is necessary in this situation, and insulting my church context in the process.
Here’s the key question: is it a sin for a pastor to ask a congregation to wear masks?
The misrepresentation is to make DW position to be only about masks as if masks in and of themselves are the thing when they are not. Every time someone says
the implication is that its masks in and of themselves which are the problem and not all the things I mentioned.
Notice here that you made a switcheroo. We aren’t talking about “asking”. A pastor can ask his congregation to do all kinds of things. We are talking about “requiring” to the point of excommunication whether formally or informally. And so yes, to require masks to the point of excommunication is in my judgement wrong. The Westminster Larger catechism says that the sins of superiors include any way dishonoring themselves, or lessening their authority, by an unjust, indiscreet, rigorous, or remiss behavior.
Any elder or pastor worth his salt will in the current situation work to honor the conscience of his people even if he believes them to be wrong rather than just to squash it through rigorous or remissful behavior. There are ways that a church could put up signs and inform their people about mask mandates and can speak openly and honestly about honoring lawful authority while resisting unlawful authority. Its why I appreciate our statement on Conscience and Covid Vaccine Mandates or the first statement on Covid.
Who do we know that is doing this? Not hypothetical PCA or SBC churches…who do you personally know who is kicking people out of the church for this? Who of our brothers is doing this? Excommunicating people over masks?
The irony is DW encourages individuals to break communion with their churches over masks. He is urging people to effectively do the very thing he is condemning.
No, I didn’t say anything about excommunication for failure to wear masks.
But I ask again, in light of Hebrews 13.17, is it a sin for a pastor to ask his congregation to wear masks? That is the question.
I know several people who have been told that they could not come into their church even to slip into the back. I know one man who was removed from teaching sunday school over masks. To not be vague I can name names. Kosmosdale Baptist Church here in Louisville for example removed a man from good standing in membership because of masks. I know of people who have been told they had to put on a mask or leave. Its not a hypothetical. You can informally excommunicate people by telling them that they are not permitted to come to worship if they don’t have a mask.
Again you are making the switch. Asking is one thing. Requiring is another. In Doug Wilson’s scenario if you aren’t going to excommunicate him over a mask than he really isn’t speaking to you. The question is should pastors and elders require masks?
As a pastor, I say no, not in our current context.
Tell that to those who are being divisive over elders asking their congregation to wear masks. We have them here in ‘nanny-state Britain’ as well.
You’re drawing an arbitrary distinction between asking as a favour and demanding over threat of excommunication. Those are your only two options. Are there really no others?
There is literally no way to read Doug Wilson without coming to the conclusion that he has made masks a top-tier gospel issue. Nobody brings death and excommunication up if they aren’t talking about first-order issues. If you want to say it’s not masks, but what masks stand for, then you have to acknowledge that he’s right that masks are idolatry and straight-up disobedience to God’s command that we come to him with “unveiled faces.” You did notice that he’s still abusing God’s word to justify the importance of never worshipping with a mask on, didn’t you?
Don’t tell me he doesn’t care about masks per se when he constantly cites that scripture passage.
Here, let’s use my situation as an example. I have thick skin, don’t worry.
I hate mask mandates. I hate lockdowns. I hate vaccine mandates with a passion. I strongly disagree with all of them.
But in light of scripture’s commands to honour the governing authorities, our elders thought it best to ask our congregation to wear masks the duration of the church restrictions. I was actually a dissenting voice on this issue, but I didn’t think it wise to push too hard and risk fracturing our body of elders when none of the groundwork was laid yet for that sort of decision. So I taught on sphere sovereignty and urged the elders and congregation to beg God to remove these hindrances from us. But we still wore masks. No congregant dissented. No one was excommunicated.
Why though? Is it just a preference thing? You don’t like the pain of a needle or how wearing a mask bothers your ears and fogs up your glasses? If its just a preference than yeah, no big deal. Why do you hate those things? Because they are civil government overreach and trampling down of other spheres of authority while requiring something that even those in authority believe to be ineffective in order to secure more authority to themselves which they have no desire to relinquish? Do you hate them because by going along with them you are selling out your family and church’s liberty and your ancestors sacrifices for your liberty? Do you hate them because the civil government without warrant is impressing on other spheres of authority and those spheres of authority rather than defending their authority are acquiescing to that overreach?
I am not trying to be evasive. I am trying to give you room as a pastor and session to make decisions though I would disagree with it and would not want my family to be a part of it. You are in a nation, I would not want to live in. So who knows what I would do in your exact situation.
Was it sin? You will answer to God for what you did and He can determine that. I believe its wrong to require masks and as a pastor I won’t.
If I were in a church that required them or I could not come in, then I would probably be looking for a church that better lined up with my convictions because I highly doubt that masks would be the only issue.
I can honestly say I respect that, and I appreciate your trying to leave room. I really don’t blame you for your views. But others, such as DW, can’t seem to give that ‘room to make decisions.’ Whether or not it’s intentional (and I think it is intentional), their rhetoric is broad brushstroke. No room for disagreement. No room for pastoral/session decisions. Evangel churches have felt the fallout from that more than I have, but I’ve had ripples here as well.
We ‘required’ it. If you want to use that terminology. And when it wasn’t followed we asked people to follow it anyway. We asked publicly across the whole congregation rather than making it an issue individually. And we had people who followed things very casually that we loved anyway.
But leaving a church over the elders asking you to wear a mask? When that’s really the only issue? Or at the least the most provoking issue? I really don’t understand that. And I totally agree with your visceral reaction to all things mask related. But this is church brother. The Body of Christ. And whatever we feared, masks were only temporary. Was there never a warrant to submit to the governing authorities for the sake of the gospel?
DW makes it an absolute issue. Leave your church over it issue. And I know from experience it’s far more complicated than that. Not the surrounding political theory of everything, the on the ground pastoral reality of it.
But that is the heart of the issue. Given the latest manifesto, if you are with him even a little bit, you are with him in that. His argument only makes sense if you are with him on his absurd mask hermeneutic.
Thank you brother for the back and forth. Its easy to get bitter and angry over all that is happening. I am trying to be charitable. I do think DW has made caveats for our position. Someone above asked why he keeps doing that. Well he has at least said he is trying to leave room. Having talked in person with him and Toby, they have said they are trying to leave room for Evangel and churches like yours though they think you are wrong. Their rhetoric can be over the top at times. The whole masks and unveiled face thing is silly.
One thing we are learning is that our rhetoric doesn’t just impact us. One of the reasons I have fought on this site to defend Moscow, Apologia, or OSA is not because I am a sycophant for them or a Rodney King “can’t we all just get along” but is that I have less fall out from Pastor Wilson’s statements than from Warhorn’s. I have had do to more defending of Warhorn. Furthermore, when I planted the church, I intentionally worked to develop a catholic spirit in our church by developing relationships with different churches that now all seem at odds. We use a lot of cannon press material for bible studies and so when the rhetoric out of Warhorn seemed to be “submit and shut up” and “beligerators” this too undermines my own authority in the church I pastor. Like it or not, when Warhorn speaks that is for all intents and purposes Evangel Presbytery speaking. Furthermore I do believe that we can be united and actually fighting together.
I am for both sides dialing back the rhetoric and I have told both sides that.
Peace could come without all the lobbing of bombs.