Matt Trewhella is one thing, but Bojidar Marinov is another entirely. And I’m afraid there is very little defense against him in the group you are discussing.
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Ok sorry, let me play Columbo and say, “One last thing.”
If what Joseph Bayly is saying here is correct, and if the Puritan Recon Postmil guys like Wilson are making category errors, then the answer is some form of Two Kingdoms theology. But what has Tim Bayly spent many years loudly opposing? Radical Two Kingdom theology, which is the more popular form of Two Kingdom theology in recent years.
This has been a foggy, uncertain and very frustrating six months. I’ve gotten pissed at you guys, and you’ve been pissed with me. But hear me out: if I need to be thinking in terms of Two Kingdoms to properly navigate the Covid era as a Christian, but Tim Bayly has been writing against Two Kingdoms for 15 years, and partnering with Doug Wilson, who promotes pop Reconstructionism, can you men see why many of us found and still find ourselves confused, perplexed and miffed by the things you’ve been writing these last six months?
These are not easy things to work through. I can honestly say, however, that I have been challenged by what you’ve written, and I’ve changed my mind on many important things. But there’s a lot that is still unclear. And please remember that I’m a sinner and I will say stupid things sometimes, but none of that means I’ve stopped loving or being grateful for you men and your ministry.
I’m here for the long haul. Even if you’d rather be rid of me, I ain’t going anywhere. 
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Are we going to chop the king’s head off again? Because that was not the high point of English-speaking Reformed exegesis.
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Even when I can’t follow the whole debate, I can tune in to appreciate the one liners like this.
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Interesting that you should mention this. I was just rereading John Milton’s Defense of the execution of Charles. While I would not agree with every word of it, the premise that no man is above the law is right on. I am thankful for the principle of Lex Rex and the doctrine of the lesser magistrate.
Some of the comments and articles and posts have made me think this is a battle between loyalists/royalists and patriots/republicans.
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I will add Milton’s apologia for regicide to my reading list, but “off with his head” is quite a place to end up when you start from “Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.”
1 Peter 2:17 NASB
Especially when the king in context is Literally Nero.
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As they should. I am thankful for their boldness. I watched a few videos from their most recent psalm sings. You can see clearly the division of light and darkness. Wicked people attempt to drown them out with vile and vulgar songs about female genitalia blaring through speakers and yet God’s truth went forth in joyful song.
If someone can watch these videos without glorifying God and being stirred for the kingdom than I would be worried for that person.
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So just to clarify, are you joyful that they are singing Psalms, or that they are protesting mask laws?
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The President’s tweet, along with Cliff Maloney’s, along with the lack of corrective statements from those involved, perpetuates the lie that these arrests were religious persecution and occurred during a church service.
And I’m now pulling my hair out.
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Probably a little bit of both but mostly because they are singing Psalms.
Matthew 5:10 says “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness
Both Calvin and Matthew Henry says that this includes being persecuted for good causes not just for preaching the gospel. Though preaching the gospel is the highest or greatest sake of righteousness. In this case, Christ Church is standing up to an unrighteous civil magistrate and proclaiming the gospel through song. They are being mocked and people are trying to drown them out not because they are just singing any ole songs but because they are Christians making a public statement.
It has been very rare if ever that a Christian has been persecuted by someone openly claiming to persecute them for Christ. There have always been a myriad of other reasons given. The early church was condemned as haters, cannibals, treasonous, harmful to public safety and health, disrupters of the economy, and on and on. They have been accused of all kinds of things but very rarely was it ever simply because they were religious. Rather it was because their devotion to Christ as King spills out into every area of life.
It is true that the church can take the offensive position and still be persecuted. The Church is a militant church. It is to be taking the offensive in the public proclamation of the truth and in laying claim to every area of life for Christ. It is also true that when the world and reprobate resist this that they are persecuting the Church and its master Jesus Christ. The world has no right to resist the proclamation of the gospel and the claim of Christ over it. When it fights his heralds of truth and seeks to harm them in their person, property, or reputation, it is persecuting Christ and it will be held responsible by Christ.
I said something like this in another post and deleted it because I was feeling a bit timid but brother you just come across as bitter grapes at this point. Can we not rejoice with our brothers even if they are imperfect. Don’t be so caught up in being the not-Moscow that you pull your hair out. I don’t think you would look good bald.
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Precisely. And the statement they are making is about MASKS. They have had public psalm sings countless times in public. In this very location, I suspect. And never have they been arrested.
I can approve of their good work of protest against tyranny while opposing their lies.
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I think you make too great a distinction between protesting tyranny and religious work. I don’t make that distinction. I think that the church has a duty to speak up against unjust and untruthful laws. They are fighting it with the weapons we have been given. They are singing Psalms. They are being persecuted for that work. It is both religious and political persecution. Do any of you think that people would be blaring songs about a woman’s genitalia if they were not Christians doing this work?
I do not think we can bifurcate this into neat categories.
And again its looks a lot like sour grapes or nit picking.
Its a bit like when Albert Mohler was right technically on reparative therapy and wrong by a mile on the right time and right place to do it. His words has the effect of giving up the battle when it is needed to be fought.
love,
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Dear Joseph,
My son is much more serious than you take him to be. The issue has been clarified ad nauseum. But to remind you, I repeat: face masks are not idolatry. Face masks are not the sacrament of idolaters. Face masks are not binding of the conscience. Face masks are not the violation of the Ninth Commandment. The guys that got arrested for taking off their masks were not being arrested as an act of religious persecution. But sure, they were catcalled and hooted at and lashed by obscenities while they engaged in civil disobedience. This doesn’t make their arrests religious persecution. And yes, we all know quite well that religious persecution comes to us ALL all the time posing as anything but religious persecution. Basic truth, dear brother. Don’t think any of us are confused about this.
Now then, if you really want to see explicit and naked and forthright religious persecution, as I’ve said to you personally, you can come into a courtroom with us just now where the suffering is waaaaay past the loudmouth/fines stage and has been going on for two years.
Meanwhile, please stop cheapening the matter by dismissing the seriousness of Moscow’s maskmania as if it’s noble and those who condemn their arguments are motivated by jealousy or bile. Love,
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Dear Brother,
We should care about the truth. I’ve been examining my heart to understand if this is sour grapes and will continue to do so.
Two thoughts and I’ve got to move on…
We should not be so sycophantic that we believe Moscow-men or Evangel Presbytery-men or any men are beyond being motivated by vanity, attention-mongering, or some kind of martyr-complex.
I fear in all of this that the unintended result will be a ton of disciples who despise authority. Our rebellious hearts are already given to it. Undisciplined sons either reject the teaching of their fathers or, thinking their fathers to be wimps, take it further. Time will tell how this plays out. But you should know that that concern has motivated my statements throughout this whole debate going back to Feb/March.
Love,
Andrew
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True. It is a temptation that all may face. I appreciate your push back against that. I also share your concern about despising authority. In our day, the issue of authority is one of the biggest issues. I appreciate the preaching on that from all the pulpits in our Presbytery.
Love you men and appreciate the back and forth.
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Dear Tim,
Thank you for responding. Regarding masks I do see something dishonest about them and the orders involving them. These orders have made a mockery of law and have created a nation of hypocrites and prideful Pharisees putting the traditions of man above the law. I think it is time for us to speak to civil magistrates and warn them that they are undermining the rule of law and doing damage to their position of authority.
For example, let me be honest I was encouraged by our Presbytery meeting and thankful more than ever to be a part of it but I was put off by the mask wearing at the meeting. And I was put off by it because there seemed to be no rhyme or reason to it. Different people wore them at different times. It was almost like people were randomly putting them on at different times. It made no sense to me. I am pretty sure everyone who did wear one took them off at different times and there seemed to be no pattern to any of that either. Its not something I would divide over but I find it hard to believe that anyone who wore one wore it from a principle that masks are necessary to protect against a pandemic.
It’s not just in that meeting. But our own President flouts them. The only ones who seem to be taking masks seriously are Democrats and they seem to wear them as a way to shame their opponents.
Masks in and of themselves are stupid things to divide over but I think we would be blind to act as if they are not a symbol of something else. To force a parishioner to wear it in our current situation is in my opinion to bind their conscience and foolish in most situations.
Going back to arrests. You know that if a group of homosexuals had shown up to make out in front of the capital that the civil magistrates would have done nothing. You said it would be because they fear being found to punish the gays but don’t fear the Christians. The fact they don’t fear Christians and therefore unequally went after them shows it is Christian persecution. A persecutor doesn’t have to be consciously motivated out of hatred for Christ for it to be persecution. Nero blamed the Christians because they were a convenient scapegoat.
An easy question to ask is this: was there any part of what happened because they were Christians and I think the easy answer is yes.
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In other words, if the magistrates don’t legislate and enforce laws exactly as we would have them, it’s religious persecution. That allows Christians to interpret any action of the state to be persecution. The result will be to so cheapen persecution that when the real heat comes, not because of petty crimes committed by our own choice but because we preach Christ and Him crucified or enter the doors of a Christian church, there will be no sympathy for Christians from those with authority because of their incessant crying wolf.
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No more than speed limits. So let’s apply your arguments there and see how fast this baby goes.
Find it hard to believe all you want, but I wore one specifically because I had (what I hope was just) a cold. And of course, there was a rhyme and a reason to when I took it off, but since you only see hypocrisy in the laws that attempt to balance the various priorities and variable dangers depending on circumstances, I’m sure you won’t be able to see anything but hypocrisy in how I did the same.
But none of that matters if you are in agreement with Wilson who says that medical uses for masks exist, but then accuses anybody who believes they serve a medical purpose of being engaged in lying. I mean, that to me is the biggest joke of the whole thing.
I’ve given plenty of other reasons why Christians could wear masks in other conversations on this site, but you dismiss all of them. Submission to authority is not allowed by your argument. So those who drive the speed limit are guilty of statist idolatry.
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Precisely. And combined with the permanent steady state unanimous perpetual disagreement among theonimists, there will never be any agreement about what laws must be opposed as immoral/unjust. This is the problem with Trewhella’s book, by the way, and I hope to write more about this soon.
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