Ask Sanityville: Is THIS effeminate?

(Joel Norris) #22

Sorry, you have it all wrong.

That I should have dressed better in my younger days was a simple statement of fact, not self-deprecation.

Rather I was humorously asserting that my masculinity and my confidence therein is so excessive that I could have afforded to and should have engaged in effeminate care for my appearance.

So I guess that means you should pray that I repent of my pride.

(Lucas Weeks) #23

Hey @Joel - pretty funny. It’s true, I totally misunderstood you. It is hard to catch jokes in this medium. I’ve seen commenters use sarcasm tags before, as in:

This forum really needs to be more serious! /sarcasm


(Joel Norris) #24

Truth be told, I have a very dry sense of humor, so it is often missed in real life, too.

(Zak Carter) #25

I was trying to make a joke about not understanding jokes. But apparently my joke about not understanding jokes was not a joke that was understood by the one whose joke I didn’t understand.

Is there a word for that?

(Nathan Smith) #26

Probably… in German.

(Joseph Bayly) #27

Isn’t is just “ironic”?

(Ken Lamb) #28

Even more, we must guard our hearts from inserting meaning that was not clearly stated. I think I understood your meaning and found it helpful.

I’m uncomfortable however describing what I would characterize in the first instance as self-infatuation as effeminacy. Yes, men should care for their appearance and should seek to be pleasing to the opposite sex in finding a mate, but most gym rats are engaging in narcissism, which is inordinate self-love. I think women who do the same are not living as God intended but also engaging in sinful self-love. That’s the only reason I wouldn’t call the mirror loving gym rate effeminate, but rather an idolater.

(Jeremy Vander Galien) #30

Excellent thought, thanks.

Effeminacy and idolatry aren’t the same thing, but isn’t effeminacy a kind of idolatry in that the root of effeminacy is a form of self-love (ironically, a form of self-love that takes the bearing of the opposite sex)?

(Joseph Bayly) #31

I think you’re missing something here. The fact that woman is the glory of man indicates that she is supposed to be beautiful in a way that man is not. Christ beautifies his bride, and thus glorifies himself. So it is with a man and his wife. Therefore the man who is overly concerned about his own appearance, beautifying himself, is indeed acting effeminately.

As we’ve already discussed, obviously the man who is unwilling or unable to take care of his own body is not a good candidate for taking care of his wife.

And of course, vanity and idolatry is a sin in both sexes. But idolizing your own body is a particularly effeminate thing. There is a reason why women (as opposed to men) are warned against getting their adornments wrong by being too focussed on the physical ones.

(John M. ) #32

Most people who drive slower than me are idiots. Most people who drive faster than me are maniacs.

Men who work out less than me are effeminate girly men. Men who work out more than me are effeminate narcissists.

I haven’t got all this figured out. But I do enjoy being stronger than I used to be.

(Alex Costa) #33

Do people actually think that? If I were to make a list of men in my life who I think of as “manly” or “not effeminate,” I would guess that a large majority of them don’t work out.

(Fr. Bill Mouser) #34

Oh my yes! That’s why I go pretty often to Gold’s Gymn! I was guilty of neglecting my physical well-being (as it relates to exercise, that is), and some form of calisthenic activity (simple stuff, over and over and over) is making a big difference.

I am protected by my age, of course, from the coarser forms of narcissism and/or effeminacy related to “body image.” Most corpses look better in a suit than I ever will in the remainder of my life! :roll_eyes: I find it interesting that the Gold’s I use is pretty evenly divided between two populations - the old geezers like me, who are using their facilities to keep the body functioning in some minimally satisfactory way, and the young bucks who’re aiming to sculpt their bodies into the latest fashion. Men whose ages are between these two amount to less than 10 percent of the whole customer base - at least as far as I’ve been able to observe.

So, any who wish to insert health-promoting physical activity into their crowded daily routines via a gym program - go for it!

(Ken Lamb) #35

Gosh I hope I didn’t step on your toes there, John :grin:

(John M. ) #36

This was purely a recounting of my own deficiencies.

(John M. ) #37

Some people certainly think that. Part of sexual dimorphism in humans is that men have more muscle mass than women, particularly in the upper body.

(Ken Lamb) #38

Just poking a little fun at your foot brother. I think it is a godly desire for a man to be able to care for his family, to protect his family, and to overcome subsequent threats to them. I just wouldn’t want to delve too much into the actual ability of those men. I may have more muscle mass than my wife and generally more than most women, but striving to be like bigger men I destroyed my shoulders and back in college. Today, I’m not trying to fight any fights or prove my masculinity, anymore than to selflessly work till I die to the glory of God and for the hope of my family. I think I’m gonna be a pretty broken hurting old man when that day comes, but Lord willing he will sustain me. Besides, even broken hurting old men can dispatch the souls of wicked men, should the need arise.

(Tim Bayly) #39

Couple things here: first, over the past couple years, many have copped to the concept and sinfulness of effeminacy while being fiercely resistant to any specific action or appearance or taste or habit constituting that sin. Imagine if the Westminster Divines or Watson in his “The Ten Commandments” had taken that approach to God’s Moral Law. We don’t really believe effeminacy is a sin until we can name it and label it and see it in ourselves and others. But now, we’re all worried that someone else will diss us for our specifics, so we avoid them or give one surrounding it with hedge phrases like “in my personal opinion (or experience).”

As we wrote in The Grace of Shame, if you can’t specify what it is, you don’t really believe effeminacy is sin. Same with greed and gossip and immodesty and lust and pride and idolatry.

Second, what we must all realize about male vanity whether in an active sodomite, a passive LivingOUT Revoice sodomite or effeminate, or a hetero Reformed man, is that it robs woman of her place in the universe. Every preening gay man; every effeminate getting his flame on; every buff dude wearing clothes that show his pecs and abs is oppressing woman and women. I’m not saying ugliness in a man is a virtue. I’m not saying a man should not wash. I’m not saying a man should not work hard to keep in shape (work is always preferable to exercise). I’m not saying…

Man has his own glory as the glory of God, but the salient thing about man’s glory, appearance-wise, is it’s uncultivated and unconscious. The minute it becomes conscious and is cultivated, it starts competing with woman for the glory of man.


(Ben Carmack) #40

@Fr_Bill: See this article from Henry Makow

Key quote: "What sort of man reads PLAYBOY?

"‘He is fastidious about his appearance, his home, and his possessions. He wants as much sex as possible and chooses sexual partners mostly on the basis of appearance. He is self-absorbed and doesn’t want emotional involvement or commitment. He thinks a woman would stifle him and children would be a burden.’

“Does this sound like homosexual behavior? It is also the masculine ideal purveyed by PLAYBOY magazine to men since the 1950’s.”

(Ross Clark) #41

On the definition of effeminacy … maybe this is an obvious point to make, but what has been included in the definition of malakos, is a lot more than simply being “camp”, which is the usual definition/understanding of “effeminate”. Many gay men are not camp, and some camp men are not gay.

(Tim Bayly) #42

True, but camp is one kind of malakoi and malakoi is sin.