Any that pisseth against a wall

A long time member at my church now works with Wycliffe Bible Traslators translating the Bible into a language for a tribe in Malaysia. He has a strong commitment to verbal plenary inspiration.
He was home last summer and gave a presentation on his work.
He gave two examples of difficulties in translation which illustrates this difficulty

  1. Translating the phrase “white as snow.” The word snow doesn’t exist in this language, and the obvious substitutes such as “frozen rain” do not convey the intended meaning well to an audience. (I don’t recall how he said they ended up translating this phrase).

  2. Translating the phrase “wise as serpents.” In that culture, serpents are considered extremely foolish animals. Would a literal translation cause readers to completely misunderstand the meaning? They attempted to solve this possible misunderstanding with a footnote referring to Genesis 3 and the phrase “the serpant was more crafty than any of the beasts of the field.”

I don’t think this can be overlooked. Men’s hearts always cause them to be tempted to soften God’s Word. I don’t think that can be avoided.

I don’t know that a perfect balance between understanding and the literal Words of God is possible, although the goal is admirable and important. However, I think @tbbayly is correct that the literal translation should always be prioritised as a hedge against the temptations of our hearts.

This doesn’t mean clearly communicating the meaning in translation goes by the wayside, but does mean there should be a clear priority.

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I’d understand ‘giving the sense’ more as application or significance than retranslation. Like the Ethiopian eunuch…what does this mean for me? And I guess I’m arguing that ‘faithful’ doesn’t need to mean obscure.

If you look at the older lexicons (not just recent scholarship), almost all of them say the phrase is a derogatory term for ‘males’. I’m happy with that, just as I’m happy with someone saying, ‘he flipped his lid’ means ‘he’s angry’. It’s not the full picture, but it’s enough.

I think that’s part of what I’m pushing against. Translating ‘the Jews’ as ‘Jewish leaders’ or ‘brothers’ as ‘brothers and sisters’, is, I think, taking a legitimate point of translation philosophy too far. So I agree with @tbbayly’s points on those. But, I’m still willing to use what translations we have. Happily, even while acknowledging they’re far from perfect of ideal. I used the NIV 2011 in London (it was changed just before I got there), even though it vexed my poor soul on a regular basis…especially in Psalms and Hebrews. Same with the ESV. They are available. There are multiple tools from both translations I’ve used to great effect in the congregation, even while taking the occasional smack at the translation philosophy from time to time. But no translation is perfect. The NASB is cumbersome (needlessly in my view), and anyway appears to be following the same path as the rest of the recently translations. The KJV/AV…well I have a theological and pastoral objection to using a Bible version my sheep can’t actually read. And I absolutely detest the NKJV…it guts the poetry of the AV without offering any value to offset the very strange way it reads. What am I to do? Continually have a moan about how rough it is living in a country with more and better translations than any society in the historical of the church?

Look, I get the concerns about translation philosophy. Really I do. I’m grieved by the lack of spine in Reformed-ish American Christianity. But I don’t have the knowledge of the languages or resources to put together a better translation (nor do most of us here), and I’ve been able to use both the NIV11 and the ESV to great effect in a congregation of ordinary and hungry believers. Maybe part of the solution I’d rather see is me (and others) dive deeper into the languages again so we can give better and more accurate exegesis.

But I just don’t see these issues with 1 Samuel 25.22 as ultimately that significant, either in exegesis or in pastoral application.

Am I making any sense?

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Yup, but 1Samuel 25:22 is the perfect example of what is at stake. The perfect example. Love,

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Ha. I meant that President Trump seems to entirely believe everything that comes out of his own mouth, at least in the moment. Similarly, these TMU pastors aren’t lying, per se. Rather, like the Anabaptists, they’re willing to be so entirely committed to their intuitions about what godliness looks like that their intuitions defeat all other possible evidence to the contrary. Hence the lack of humility accusation, shifting the locus of doctrinal authority inward and subjectivizing it.

Off topic, though.

BTW, thinking about these Hebrew words being removed from Scripture in English, it’s hard for me to stop thinking of all the reasons this text’s deletion from God’s Word is the perfect example of the betrayal of inspiration by today’s scribes. So let me continue to hammer it home since I doubt that anyone sees this to be as serious as it is.

First, the argument has always been made about this and similar texts that it’s the job of the translator to make the meaning clear to the reader. Thus the whole scribal guild has demonstrated during and since the late nineties’ neutered Bible scandal that their goal was to render the text in such a way that readers would not need anything other than the Bible itself to understand what the Bible was “really” saying here and there. In other words, if the guild did their translation work properly, a man could read the text without needing help from a teacher or preacher. Maybe metanarrative sort of stuff would still need help; and yes, theology; and yes, certainly covenantal secret handshakes and that sort of stuff; but not the words right there on the page. Make them thangs clear!

Confusion and ambiguity were the enemy, and the idea that confusion and ambiguity could be or are inspired by the Holy Spirit and present in the original text, intentionally (speaking of God’s intent, you must understand) was a thought too deep and threatening to the scribal guild. So the prevailing principle became making clear what was unclear in the original, whether that lack of clarity was in the Hebrew itself, or whether that lack of clarity would necessarily be present by accurately rendering a Hebrew idiom that (the guild claimed) would be unclear if it were allowed to be rendered into the English accurately. (“Those who piss against the wall” is an example of this second category.)

In this second instance, the thought was something along the lines of:

Maybe the reader won’t know it’s the male sex who is capable of standing up by a wall and pissing on it, so we better just remove the idiom. It’s a gross expression anyway, and only MAGA sort of men would want God’s Bible containing such gross expressions. Furthermore, it might make our guild look bad to have our names attached to such gross expressions preferred by MAGA sort of men. Sophisticated people who speak English don’t use such gross expressions, and we want to take their delicate sensibilities into account in our production of an English text of God’s Word that is worthy of our English non-MAGA audience.

Anyhow, if any pastor wants to give back to his people what we deleted, he can do it in his sermon. You know, something like, “Now the original word here is not really ‘men,’ but the Hebrew idiom ‘those who piss against the wall.’ Some of you, of course, are too cultured and delicate to understand that, since men expel their liquid waste from a hole at the end of their penis, it has always been a defining trait of the male sex that they can expel their liquid waste while standing up. On the other hand, women not having penises, it’s a defining trait of their sex that they are not able to expel their liquid waste while standing up. So you see, dear simpletons, these Hebrew words God inspired were left out of the English translation we’re using today because the scribal guild who produce our translations, as well as the Bible publishers who sell them to us, don’t want to allow God to use such a profane, earthy, and embarrassing idiom. It would make our scribes and publishers look bad. Or worse, it would make God’s Holy Spirit look bad. So now I’ve explained it to you, and that’s that. Aren’t you thankful you have a pastor who lets you in on all the secret things scribes hide from us that God inspired to be written in His Word? Where would you be without your pastor, huh?”

What on earth?

Look, give it to God’s people straight. Give them His Words “those who piss against the wall” straight. Pissing against the wall is not rocket science. Like the male inclusive, our problem with “those who piss against the wall” is not that we are afraid women and men and children will not understand it, but that they will understand it, and that they will find it as humorous or shameful a way of referring to the first sex as it was when it was said in Hebrew and inspired to be written in the Hebrew Scriptures.

I’ll leave this theme here for now, only adding proof for how prissy Christian scribes and publishers are by posting for readers the artwork from the front of what I consider the greatest rock and roll album of all time:

download

Love,

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I want to find an excuse to teach this text so badly now. :smiley:

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Talked to Aaron Prelock, and I wish he’d comment here on the real meaning of the text. He’s excellent on it. Love,

I couldn’t agree more. From my point of view as a layman, a translator shouldn’t be concerned with giving me the “sense” of what God was saying. I want them to translate what he ACTUALLY said. If what God actually said is confusing to me, this is where pastors and teachers (and historical/grammatical research) comes into play.

In Scripture, God uses idioms for a reason. Even culturally-specific ones. This is not a result of ignorance on his part, or a lack of foresight. The idiom flows from his omniscience, not despite it.

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You’re very kind.

The point in 1 Samuel 25 is that David is furious and about to do something very rash. His comment is an expression of a soul that’s prepared for brutality, for settling the score. Contra Steve Anderson (the video referenced above), the point is not about how men use the loo or that ‘the president of the United States and the translators of the NIV pee sitting down.’ I think everyone here get that.

I’m not sure I really disagree with the translation philosophy that’s been brought up. I do agree with @tbbayly’s assessment of the problems with the ESV. The NIV’s ‘and Adam made love to his wife’ grates on me on so many levels. There’s something to yadah meaning ‘know’ that is infinitely preferable to their rendering of the verse. There are others I could point to as well.

But I chose to engage @MattShiff because I’m concerned about thunder-puppies on Sanityville. Not that Matt is a thunder-puppy, but because these sorts of concerns about big issues like the ESV and translation philosophy and pastoral ministry can quickly but merely bugbears for younger men. Pastor Tim clearly has the maturity to know how to implement his very valid convictions. And, I think he’d be the first to admit this, he sounds much more absolutist in principle than he was in practice. Many of us younger men have all of his zeal but far less of his maturity. Matt may be right to desire a less-prudish translation, but does Matt (if I can use him as an example) understand how to use the translations he has for the good of the flock?

In other words, and genuinely without making judgments about Matt’s character, it’s far easier to point out what’s wrong with the ESV or modern Christianity than it is to shepherd Christ’s flock well ourselves. It’s much easier to complain about a particular translation than it is to figure out how to use imperfect translations in daily life and ministry. We’ve got loads of conviction here on Sanityville; do we also have pastoral wisdom?

Every group has its thunder-puppies, including Sanityville and Evangel. I can be one sometimes. I’m not saying Matt is one; I don’t know him well enough to make that sort of judgment about his character (and from what I do know, I suspect he’s much more a capable shepherd than a thunder-puppy). Look, it’s fun for younger men to correct their betters isn’t it? It’s fun to say, ‘this group/person you think is so mature is wrong wrong wrong.’ And sometimes it may be true and even necessary to do so. I spent some time earlier this week addressing very public problems with pastoral theology at a pastors’ conference. But I would hope that all of us are developing the maturity to see the problems with the ESV while also understanding that regularly spouting off about translation philosophy in the pulpit may not actually help our sheep understand and apply God’s Word to their lives. It may even, if we’re not careful, undermine their confidence in the Bibles they hold in their hands.

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Aaron, you are right. Us young men are always in need of having our zeal put in check and being tempered with wisdom that we do not yet have. So thank you,

However, I do not entirely agree with your assessment of David’s use of the word. You imply that this was a slip of the tongue due to his rashness. Of course, David was furious and about to do something rash, but circumstances of his use of the term do not mean that the term itself is to be limited to his rashness. In other words, the term cannot be deleted because of his sin. Especially since the term is not only used by David:

This short article was very helpful. The author points out that we see this term throughout the books of Kings as well, being used by God’s prophets. God Himself uses the word in 1 Kings 14:10 through Ahijah, in 1 Kings 21:21-23 through Elijah [the NASB95 doesn’t give a footnote with the literal word here, but it is there], in 2 Kings 9:8 through a young man sent by Elisha (the young man being one of the sons of the prophets).

All of this goes to show this term was not just a rash Davidic slur, but a very intentional word. But even if the only occurrence of the term was in 1 Sam 25:22, we should still not clean it up since it is God’s Word.

Blessings,

Matt,

I think the argument being made risks missing the forest for the trees. Referring to a person through their genitals is a way of showing contempt for that person, whether one refers to a man or a woman (we see both in scripture).

David’s contempt flows from his unbridled fury; the Lord’s contempt in Kings flows from his righteous indignation at their abject wickedness. But the point is the contempt of the speaker, not the manner of urinating. While I agree that God has chosen his Words deliberately, I think you, Anderson, and Van Leuven are reading into the choice of those words an intent that is not there. These passages aren’t trying to define biological differences between male and female, however much that is debated in our day. Those differences are inherent in the language because our world is gendered according to God’s design.

But to argue that there’s a lesson about how to wee is, I think, very poor exegesis, and frankly silly.

I’m not arguing that this text tells us how a man must urinate (I don’t know what Steven Anderson said, but he is insane). Rather, as you pointed out, God’s Word is in line with God’s world. Men do pee standing up. There are no urinals in women’s restrooms. And the article above pointed out that even dogs pee differently.

Our doctrine of sexuality doesn’t stand or fall on this text. But shouldn’t we aim for a more rich, colorful, and accurate translation instead of a general one? The Hebrew word is wall-pisser, wall-urinator. Why cover that word up? Yes, wall-urinator means man, but that same argument is what people use to cover up “old wives’ fables” in 1 Tim 4:7. “Old wives’ fables" are silly myths, see we’re not hiding God’s word?” Why cover up what is clearly said by God?

Also, I want to emphasize how helpful your comment about thunder-puppies is. There’s a thunder-puppy in me that feeds on pride, bitter jealousy, and selfish-ambition. And we know what James has to say about that (James 3:13-18). Us young men are in constant need of warning. We need the wisdom from above.

Edit: just to be clear, this text is pointing out what is obvious in nature. Men pee standing up. When I said this text doesn’t tell us how a man must urinate, I just meant that one could very well take this to an extreme such as Steven Anderson (I have no clue what he said but I know it is ridiculous even if some of what he said is true). Confession: sometimes I pee sitting down…because I want to read or have some peace and quiet… But how men urinate comes up in daily life all the time. Husbands and wives fight over the lid. Little boys have to be taught how to aim.

Oh and thanks Tim, Won’t Get Fooled Again is stuck in my head now!

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That precisely my concern. 1 Sam 25.22 is a footnote at best in our doctrine of sexuality, or maybe a very quick illustration. Unless you’re Tim Bayly, but he’s done his homework way better (and far longer) than the rest of us. He knows his stuff. It’s much easier to copy his tone than his substance. Most of us still need to be studying our grammar before trying to experiment with the rules of rhetoric.

Any closer connection risks serious eisegesis and misses what God intended us to see in these passages. And it’s lazy. Anderson’s approach to the Word, which is common in Fundamentalist circles, is a shallow reading of the text. I don’t think Calvin gets to this passage, but I would be shocked to see him or Augustine make more than a passing reference to this sort of thing. Maybe Augustine would, in some very elaborate metaphysical kind of way. He’s kinda like that. Tertullian definitely would.

But there are much better texts to make the points you’re making. I want to see us be better at understanding exegesis and theology. Making side points the main point doesn’t help us. You weren’t doing that, but I was concerned some of the ‘NASB/ESV/NIV is awful’ emphasis lately was heading in that direction.

Now to The Who…

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I’ve been thinking about this for the past few days, and I think it’s only partly true. It’s true that men pee standing up. It’s part of natural law. That’s not to say that it’s immoral if a man ever urinates some other way. Rather, it is to point out that there is a natural form that is part of how God created us as men as opposed to women. When Scripture references this difference explicitly, it reinforces the natural law. When we see it in our bodies, natural revelation is reinforcing what Scripture says elsewhere about men.

In other words, this passage doesn’t instruct us to pee standing up. It does drive home the point that men are different from women and that it can even be seen in the form and function of natural revelation.

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“You shall rise up before the grayheaded and honor the aged^, and you shall revere your God; I am the LORD.” – Leviticus 19:32

^NASB footnote: literal “face of the aged”

Why take out the part about the face?

Maybe have a log for these?

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Here’s one verse with two footnotes. The second one is from opposite end of the spectrum:

“Behind the door and the doorpost
You have set up your sign;
Indeed, far removed from Me, you have uncovered yourself,
And have gone up and made your bed wide.
And you have made an agreement for yourself with them,
You have loved their bed,(1)
You have looked on their manhood.(2)
— Isaiah 57:8

(1): Or lying down
(2): Lit hand

I don’t think it would be appropriate to translate it “hand.” “Manhood” is a much translation.

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Well, I wouldn’t quibble with keeping the word God inspired here, actually. It’s dumb rock simple to “get it,” and if they don’t trust us to, they can always put in footnote saying something like, “Here the Hebrew word ‘hand’ is a euphemism for the sexual organ containing man’s contribution to the creation of new life.” This allows readers to get into the way of thinking in the original, that the man’s sexual organ is his regenerative agency and “power”—often what ‘yad’ is, in fact, translated in the Old Testament. Love,

Not to close out this discussion or have the final word, but I want to state my continued firm conviction that “pisseth against the wall” in Hebrew should be translated “pisseth against the wall” in English. We can argue all we want about the meaning of “pisseth against the wall” and what allowing the Hebrew to appear in English might indicate concerning this or that man’s pride or emotional maturity, but to have that argument requires the knowledge that God inspired the words “pisseth against the wall.”

And that’s what I want to get back to. Stop all the patronization of God’s people. Give God’s Word to them straight. Demonstrate a little trust in the Reformers’ doctrine of perspicuity, allowing it out in the field, unsupervised.

I mean, consider how there are hundreds of transliterations in English Bibles originally done centuries ago, but now normal English usage. If God’s plowboys easily learned the meaning of all those transliterations, and put them into their common usage, surely they can handle “pisseth against the wall.” Love,

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I agree, but I think your argument is weakened by not acknowledging the instances where the “literal” translation is simply bad translation.

Returning to “yad," if “power” is one of the 19 possible meanings (along with hand, finger, arm, projection, armrest, axle, care, part, etc) I’m not sure why you would want to translate it as “hand” in this case. The word is “yad,” not “hand,” though that is its most literal meaning. But even Young’s Literal Translation doesn’t translate it “hand” in this verse, but “station.” True, this is the only place in the Bible where it clearly means “manhood.” But to translate it “hand” would be an example of "translating up” and hiding the meaning.

It is not helpful to say that the word God actually inspired was “hand” in this case because the word “yad” has so many different meanings. The word inspired was “yad.” Sure, we could replace the 1600-ish instances in English translations with the transliteration “yad." But if we aren’t going to do that, I think the word is a great example of one that needs to be translated in various ways if we are going to do translation work.

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B/c if you look at the 1,359 places in OT where “yad” is translated “hand,” “hand’s” communication of strength, agency, and especially power becomes very clear to readers as they familiarize themselves with God’s Word. And it is precisely this meaning which is left behind when “nakedness” or “penis” are substituted for it.

The question is not whether there is a need for translation, but what is and is not good translation. I’ve shown why I believe transliteration is not bad translation, and thus even more so sticking closely to the original meaning of the Hebrew (or Greek) words. That’s where focus is needed.

I find myself wondering if the point I’m making, about all the transliterations of Hebrew and Greek words that former translators successfully brought into the English common tongue, is understood? This is a very significant point which seems not to be understood (or simply avoided).

But overall, the issue I’m concerned about is exposing the Bibles, publishers, pastors, and scholars for their habitual bowdlerization of Scripture today; and worse, their deletion/replacement of thousands of male semantic meaning components inspired by God. Exposing and opposing this denial of God’s inspiration of God’s words is the work needed which is not being shared. Love,