So your contention is that their intent is to proclaim safe a vaccine that is unsafe for pregnant women? Because their goal is to kill pregnant women and babies? Because women are terrible?
Come on Pastor Joseph. Surely you can think of things that might not be this but would still make you not trust them. It doesnât have to be the most nefarious thing you can think of.
Iâm sorry, but the only thing I can think of that is in question is whether it is safe for pregnant women. So if you think they are intentionally lying, what other goal could they have?
Am I missing something?
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I doubt thatâs the case for almost any of the people at the CDC. I think even fewer individual physicians around our country would express or desire such a thing. I think the manner in which the actions and lack of actions that merit substantial distrust occur is in more subtle ways and also accumulate in subtle ways over time.
I stand by this descriptive statement from another thread within this context as well.
Iâll add a couple videos as meaningful food for thought regarding some such examples that would lead many to give consideration to just the sort of extreme distrust of official and respectable declarations of medical science as those that are under discussion. (Obviously not all official, respectable declarations thereof. 
) As is probably appropriate, they intersect meaningfully with issues not unrelated to deep state history. For that history is rife with many hidden manipulations of large swaths of human society in ways that are seldom wholesome or justifiable. They are however capable of affecting issues of medicine that influence and impact us all, including the vast majority of medical scientists and physicians who are mostly and even eminently trustable and worthy of honor.
Could it be that the statement pregnant people reveals a commitment to a political position so that data they deal with will be interpreted through a grid or made to fit a grid. It means to me that the cdc is committed to a certain worldview (one at odds with ours and with reality). This colors their decisions in ways that will be harmful even if they have no explicit intentions of harm.
For example Physicians that recommend little children go through gender reassignment surgeries think they are doing good but their commitment to a godless worldview is doing harm. Itâs not necessary that they actively desire to do harm.
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They are capable of declaring a vaccine safe when they are told to do so, not when it is. I think thatâs the issue. Just as they call pregnant women âpregnant peopleâ when they are told to do so. Just as they declare a man a woman when they are told to do so. They have established that reality is no longer a factor in their mission. Why trust anything they say?
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You also factor in the vast amounts of money that pharmaceutical companies stand to make.
Pastor Spurgeon,
I think what you are saying here is the hinge on which everything Covid -related has turned for the last 18 months. Christians and Trump-supporters watching the CDC and its recommendations are told they must âfollow the science.â But in our rapidly unraveling society, âfollow the scienceâ doesnât mean follow science, it means âfollow my left wing politics.â Science is political because everything is political now.
When Christian people hear those words, âfollow the science,â it immediately activates their political tribal instincts. We now believe that Covid is not about Covid, but about the âfollow the scienceâ leftâs agenda. Combine that with what we know about how âscienceâ is used as a catch-all buzzword to demean the Christian faith and we are ready for cultural battle.
But just because we feel we are under attack from people who despise us, does not mean we necessarily are. Christians are called to love our enemies. I can believe that most of the people working at the CDC hold political and cultural views opposite of mine. I can believe most of them hold my confession of faith in contempt. I can even believe they desire to use their power to make my confession of faith illegal, for example in the case of banning âreparative therapyâ for âpublic healthâ reasons.
The CDC is run by our enemies. But they still have expertise in infectious disease. They still sit in Mosesâ seat. The same was true of the Roman emperors who Paul told fellow Christians to submit to. The hostility to Christianâs at that time, from Rome, was much worse than the hostility we might get from a given CDC official.
And hasnât this been Warhornâs argument these last 18 months, concerning authority? Warhorn is not defending the cultural commitments of the CDC. Theyâre defending the CDCâs office and they are calling us to be careful and charitable of our judgements of what the CDC does concerning the pandemic. Because Christians are called to love our enemies.
If everything is about our personal resentments as Christians toward this or that authority composed of these or those people who we are convinced hate our guts, then there is no authority anywhere we will ever submit to. There is no enemy anywhere we will love. And the next step is anarchy and civil war.
Is that what we want? And do we want to start it over masks and vaccines? Think about it.
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Thats just it isnât it. Its not really about masks and vaccines. In the same way the American war for independence wasnât just about stamps and tea. No I donât want to go to war over a mask. But can we not stop the tyranny now with lesser means than war rather than waiting for it to be something much worse. Do you have to wait till your enemy gets to full strength before you decide to fight. We donât live in the time of Rome with Christians fed to the lions but do we have to allow ourselves to get there?
Loving our enemies doesnât mean we have to let them do what they are doing.
I believe we are called to submit to authority and teach it often. I try to model it. We all do it every day. I submit to wicked authorities all the time when I obey traffic laws, pay our taxes, and donât break other laws. When I apply for a drivers license or try to follow building codes. I put up with quite a bit of what I consider lawless authority and yet submit. Its mind-boggling to me that in the last year, those who have tried to defend their churches being open, who have protested masks, and have spoken in protection of liberty while at the same time submitting in hundreds of ways each day to authorities are being called beligerators and rebels for standing up to what they believe to be illegitimate use of authority.
Dear Joseph,
This is not a true representation of your fellow presbyters. You may not see it, but I do, and itâs discouraging. None of us have attacked or called those seeking to keep their churches open âbelligeratorsâ simply for that reason. None of us have called those who âprotest masksâ belligerators simply because they oppose masks. None of us have dissed those who have âspoken in protection of libertyâ belligerators. We have long spoken in protection of liberty, as you very well know, and have suffered for that speaking.
At least here at Trinity Reformed Church, we have consistently declared boundaries where we would conscientiously refuse to obey these civil authorities. Yet we have done so without the Attitude and Screaming that is central to to the ploys of belligerators. Itâs been nonstop and Iâm very weary of it.
Those we have called belligerators are those who have fomented rebellion and disrespect for those in authority over them by nonstop catcalling of âtyrannyâ and âtyrants.â They have taunted their civil authorities until they are successful in getting bustedâthen claiming they were busted because they were being persecuted for our religion. Bunk.
Those we speak of as belligerators are those who have refused to give any warnings against disrespect and rebellion in any way similar to the warnings of the Apostle Paul. That is why we condemn them. They have demonstrated constant and intense disrespect for those God has placed in authority over them, and that is sin.
Basic postures matter, and your fellow presbyters of Evangel Presbytery (I think I can say) see the basic postures of those we condemn. For their part, those we condemn accuse us of speaking only of submission, but thatâs inaccurate. We have consistently said where and when we would disobey these authorities, but we have also said those authorities should be respected and spoken of in a way that demonstrates that respect.
I hope you understand what Iâm saying, dear brother.
Love,
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Of course. And itâs my judgment that this is what you are doing.
Show me data that the vaccine is unsafe. In the meantime, I have a lot more trust for the doctors and statisticians looking at the actual data than I do for you (pre)judging it.
The reality is that ever since the fiasco with birth defects from morning sickness medicine, the entire medical community has been more cautious about medicine for pregnant women than for anything anywhere else ever. And that has remained true and only increased as abortion flourished. Your position is absurd. The majority of drugs they wonât even try to tell you whether they are safe and then urge you to assume they are unsafe. But now your convinced that for a tiny financial benefit for another organization that the CDC would risk lying about the data for pregnant women? Have you even given a momentâs thought to what the consequences would be for this? What sort of backlash they would suffer? The criminal charges? The manslaughter charges?Your contention is that they are criminally stupid, unable to do basic cost-benefit analysis. You havenât given a single actual reason why anybody at the CDC would do this. Itâs simply absurd. Why would they do this? A generic âworldviewâ answer is meaningless. I can tell you precisely why Cincinnati Childrenâs does genital mutilation and abused children in other ways. And you know why thatâs important? Because I have to decide whether I trust them to work on my sonâs broken leg. Guess what? Theyâre pretty good at it, in spite of their wicked worldview.
Yes. Of course you can. You can practice reasoned civil disobedience to commands against Godâs law. You can vote. Call your representatives. Call other people to do these things. Here in Ohio it is now illegal for the health departments, health director, or governor to require masks. But if you canât win at the ballet box, tearing down the civil authority and denying that it is legitimate is the next best thing I suppose. It makes voting useless, but so what? Whatâs the point of democracy? We donât submit unless itâs to somebody who will do what we want, anyway.
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Joseph, just curious if you have searched for or come across documents or videos in which doctors or other medical personnel have spoken against the vaccines? If not, you must not be looking or must not know where to look. In which case, I would urge that you do so as a pastor, being that in this instance at least the 5th, 6th, and 9th commandments are concerned. If you have, presumably you reject their testimony and findings. If so, upon what basis do you make the determination? If youâd like, I can put you in contact with a pastor who knows 30 people personally who have either died or had seriously adverse effects following reception of the vaccine. And he is the furthest thing from being a belligerator.
While weâre on the topic, just curious if you have any thoughts on the statisticians and lawyers who have alleged with evidence that fraud was committed during the presidential election?
How are those three commandments concerned with assertions about vaccine safety? Please share links to the documents and videos you are referring to. The CDC has this to say:
Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 351 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through August 9, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,631 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if itâs unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse eventâblood clots with low plateletsâwhich has caused deaths [1.4 MB, 40 pages].
Given 6,631 reports of death following vaccine, a pastor who knows several people who have died is not surprising. Establishing causal link is the crux of the issue.
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This discussion illustrates why conservative Christians have been so politically ineffective. It seems that some people on this thread have lost the notion of common grace that enables unbelievers who have many false and evil views to nonetheless advise and govern for the partial good of the people. Devolving to a Manichean good vs. evil battle causes people to lose sight of what the real issues are which causes energy to be uselessly expended in ways that exert little leverage in making real change. And I am beginning to think that the extreme skepticism exhibited by some commenters here is a form of rebellion in which the individual becomes the supreme arbiter in all matters.
Edited to add: Although masks are annoying, it seems obvious that they have become a crystallized symbol of resistance against the elite. On the opposite side, the elite pushes masks as a demonstration of âdoing somethingâ. Rather than bare rebellion over wearing masks, it would be smarter to pressure the elite to explain why they push masks rather than take more effective measures like shutting down all-night discos (many people in a confined space over a long time). Or why churches are closed but restaurants are open. And patiently work through regular channels and wait to be vindicated by the courts and the legislative process, as has happened. This is more effective, I think.
Edited again: Treating masks as the last straw in a long series of lawless tyranny is ineffective because there is no goal other than inchoate struggle against âtyrannyâ. And if such âtyrannyâ is overthrown, what comes after? Iâd prefer to be ruled by our current feckless and ungodly elite.
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Joseph wants expert-authority data that demonstrates the vaccines are unsafe (which is readily available but it may take some effort, especially being that it is often deleted from mainstream spaces). Beyond the chief need which is to operate upon first principles, not endless data, what is also needed is data that demonstrates the vaccines are safe (which is also readily available). But thereâs the rub. Both are available; and that was my point.
Upon what basis do we reject unsafe data and accept safe data? Are men even giving the former fair hearing (Deuteronomy 1:17; Leviticus 19:15)? Why are some quick to apply the hermeneutic of suspicion ecclesiastically but not civilly or medically? Do biblical anthropology and hamartiology somehow not apply outside the context of Christian sanctification? Iâm not suggesting a simplistic reduction of good vs. evil. But I am suggesting that dismissing concerns of the unedumacated dumb-dumbs while donning the (selectively forwarded and often contradictory) experts with flowers of acceptance is⌠oddly Romish, to say the least. I find the ostensible presumption of safety until proven otherwise to be absurd myself and terribly naĂŻve given many things. Too much to get into now. âConspiraciesâ and such.
As regards the commandments. The 5th commandment teaches, among other things, those with authority are to wield it for the good of those under their charge. E.g. magistrates, employers, parents, school boards, pastors and elders. Vaccine recommendations and/or mandates come into play here. Especially because the 6th commandment teaches the protection and preservation of life, which would include whether or not a foreign substance injected into the body is safe, or if there is conflicting information about said substance, and, if so, that needs to be noted, not dismissed. 9th commandment concerns the promotion of truth which means both sides in issues of judgment ought to be considered, and we are to inquire diligently.
If youâd like my personal opinion, I think the average Joe can use his own God-given brain, conduct his own research, and make his own decisions about this and that issue, and is not required to follow or agree with the majority expert-authority consensus or practice in these matters (Matthew 28:11-13). Call this rebellion if you like. It certainly packs a rhetorical punch and gaslights tender consciences. But such is to me indication of a prelatic tendency among those with authority, and their being out of touch with a great many common folk, which, ironically, tends to help foment, not avoid, actual rebellion. See the protests in France and elsewhere for examples of such. People are very perturbed.
Do recall at the start of this whole fiasco that there were doctors and other medical personnel attempting to get info out about viable treatments which comports with the aforementioned commandments. What happened? Those videos were deleted. Again and again, from mainstream outlets. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Yet here we are whining about men whining about masks and vaccines. Itâs all very ironic to me. And sad.
Hereâs one video to get you started: Dr Sherri Tenpenny Dropping Some Serious Truth Bombs On Ohio Congress About The Covid-Jab Genocide
A brief document: 57 Top Scientists and Doctors: Stop All Covid Vaccinations
Legal testimony of man from previous document: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHi3lX3oGM
You can search on Gab âvaccineâ. It will bring up personal testimonies and âexpertâ documents, videos, entire groups dedicated to reporting adverse effects following reception of vaccines. 30 people for one man who is not a doctor is hardly unsurprising. The crux is not establishing causal relation, actually. The crux is to establish no pattern of adverse effects after vaccination. Anyone who has studied knows that ainât happening. Of course we could simply call a spade a spade.
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Dear brother,
I think I can get to the heart of my complaint pretty quickly with this quote here. What I mean is that when I made a generalization about your position you dismissed it as inaccurate. Your position is more nuanced than âjust submit.â In other words you want me to accurately describe your position without mischaracterization.
A lot of what Iâve been saying is can we please show that same kindness to those on the opposite side rather than generalizing them as moscovites and belligerents who only shout âtyranny tyrannyâ while teaching no submission to authority. You know as well as I do that that too is an inaccurate generalization of their position.
Secondly, if the warhorn doesnât make a distinct or clear soundâŚ.
What I mean is the reason I mischaracterized your position is because while after many conversations with you and posts here I know itâs more nuanced, Iâm not sure the note being sounded on covid is clear. Even in this thread it appears to me that Joseph and others are arguing for submission to vaccines. If you ask people outside our presbytery who have heard of it what our position is they will most likely tell you it is âwear a mask, get the vaccine, and shut up about it.â Why do I say that? Because I routinely deal with people who think that is our position. Now you might say well we have been more nuanced than that and have not ever said that. We have written more than that. And yes you have. But I would argue that the cumulative effect of all the writing on Covid and the generalizations against those on the other side lead to people assuming this is our position.
I love you and appreciate your work and patience with me. Iâm not trying to be pugnacious.
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Thatâs the same thing stated differently. Adverse effects are causally related. If you mean to say there should be no pattern of sickness or death following vaccination then you have an impossible standard. How many of the sick and dead would not be sick or dead if not for the vaccine is the critical question.
When evaluating interventions itâs important to consider the alternatives. I donât believe any drug is 100% benign but when I look at a disease like Tetanus I ask myself whether I would regret it more if I got the disease or if I unnecessarily suffer the side effects of the vaccine. The chances of getting the disease are slim but the consequences are serious. On the other hand, the Tetanus shot is relatively safe and 100% effective. Covid vaccine safety should also be considered in light of alternatives.
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Dear Joseph,
I am appreciative of your comments. Nevertheless, I do not agree with your characterization of Moscow as not accurately summed up in this way. Six months ago, we poured over their posts exhaustively and came to these conclusions. Were we wrong?
It is true we need to update our public statements to show what we are thinking now, and I hope we can do this soon.
With love,
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Not exactly. Iâm emphasizing effects post-vaccination, not the causal relation per se. What you have if you start digging for info in terms of said effects is blood clots, tremors, heart issues, brain issues, blood issues, at times leading to and including death, with many who were otherwise quite healthy. Of course you also have people who are fine. For now. My grandmother is one. This is where the tired phrase âcorrelation is not causationâ comes in with all the snobbery of cognoscenti nonsense to ambiguate what is otherwise quite clear to Mr. Average Joe: the common denominator pre-adverse-effect is vaccine and I donât need an expertâs interpretation to make a judgment for me and mine.
If you read through all of the posts and comments made here over the past year+ regarding COVID and vaccines, I think you will find non-credulous and nuanced views expressed by the pro-vaccination people here. But when it comes to lack of safety for the COVID vaccines, I think you are 100% wrong. As I have said before, the FDA and CDC have given too much emphasis to vaccine safety, likely at the cost of several hundred thousand lives in the U.S. Itâs always been recognized that vaccines might have adverse effects, but the danger of COVID is larger, at least for older age groups. So the question is not whether the vaccine is safe or not, but how safe it is compared to the actual disease. And for older age groups, the results show that the vaccine definitely saves lives. My complaint is not that the public health establishment has erred in letting unsafe vaccines be administered but rather that they delayed for several months the approval of vaccines to willing takers during a time when a thousand Americans were dying from COVID every day.
Do I think people should be forced to take substances into their body? No. Do I think it is right for the government and private organizations to restrict schooling, employment, etc. to only those who are vaccinated? Yes, in principle, and also in practice if the numbers show that vaccination reduces transmission of disease.
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